Why is this tolerated?

[XarXo]

Originally posted by Reinhard-Baer

Well obviously EU and American point of view on this matter really differs a lot. To me the flag symbolizes all the hard work people have done over centuries to bring the country in this super-power shape it is now. It represents the founding fathers that fought hard for independence and guided our nation through the storms over the years. And to do this to a flag is like insulting and making fun out of this brave and honourable men and this is very, very low
I'm a little disappointed that this side for which I had a very high opinion allows such crimes be supported but as said before this is a private site and when the operator allows it we have to live with it but that doesn't necessarily mean we agree to it and I find it very honourable from the mods to allow such discussion about this site, it's really good for a community to discuss about the rules. This way we can expand our views and grow together.

On a side note:
I've followed the recommendation from some users here and put all these clowns on my ignore list.
Thank you

bleh

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Reinhard-Baer

Well obviously EU and American point of view on this matter really differs a lot. To me the flag symbolizes all the hard work people have done over centuries to bring the country in this super-power shape it is now. It represents the founding fathers that fought hard for independence and guided our nation through the storms over the years.

Funny how the U.S. flag has come to symbolize the fighting and not what was fought for.

[Ming]

Only one persons views on what the US flag really represents...

[Static Universe]

Originally posted by Ming
Only one persons views on what the US flag really represents...

But increasingly prevalent, IMO.

As someone who is pro-American, I really don't have a problem with flagburners, or people who feature them in their avatars. I find this whole movement to ban burning to be the worst sort of lowest common denominator politics, as ultimately it means absolutely nothing and changes nothing for the better.

[Amesjustin]

As an american, I find Maniacs avatar offensive. It rather clearly shows his hatred toward the country, it's people, and what they stand for.

But as an american I also strongly beleive in free speech, so I do not think it should be banned. Censoring his ability to express himself, no matter how insensitive it may be to american citizens concerned about loved ones overseas, is just as anti-american as the flag-burning itself.

Of course, that doesn't prevent me from adding him to my ignore list, either...

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Amesjustin
As an american, I find Maniacs avatar offensive. It rather clearly shows his hatred toward the country, it's people, and what they stand for.

"No! I dont hate Americans! I just hate the government. I love Freedom and Democracy. The only reason I burn the flag is because I hate the BUSH ADMINISTRATION."
"No. You clearly hate everyone in this country and what the flag stands for (freedom and democracy)."
"What?! No I dont! I just said....."
"Blah blah blah blah I'm not listening! Blah blah blah blah. I can't hear you!"

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000




"No! I dont hate Americans! I just hate the government. I love Freedom and Democracy. The only reason I burn the flag is because I hate the BUSH ADMINISTRATION."
"No. You clearly hate everyone in this country and what the flag stands for (freedom and democracy)."
"What?! No I dont! I just said....."
"Blah blah blah blah I'm not listening! Blah blah blah blah. I can't hear you!"

Guess what? I hate the George Bush Administration too. So does the majority of Americans. He will NOT be re-elected.

The American Flag DOES stand for not only the government, but the people, the freedoms, the Democracy and right now the soldiers who are overseas risking their lives for all of it. And when you are supporting the burning of the flag you are basically taking a big steaming crap on ALL of that not just a specific part.

If you take issue with George Bush only then have something that says that as your avatar. I have seen at least one person in Apolyton that has an avatar that says "I Still Hate George Bush". I thought that was funny.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Amesjustin
The American Flag DOES stand for not only the government, but the people, the freedoms, the Democracy and right now the soldiers who are overseas risking their lives for all of it. And when you are supporting the burning of the flag you are basically taking a big steaming crap on ALL of that not just a specific part.

NO!

A flag stands for a POLITICAL ENTITY, thats all. Some people attach emotions and ideals to the flag. I don't.

When I burn the flag or fly it upside down, I'm expressing my anger at the administration, not the people. I want the people of this country to be FREE of Bush so that it can begin to prosper again.

The soldiers overseas are not risking their lives for a flag....They are risking their lives for FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY (In most cases). In fact, when an anti-flag burning bill entered congress, quite a few vetrans said "No. I dont like this one bit." because THEY DID NOT FIGHT FOR A FLAG.

I'm sure Maniac shares the same views as I do. I'm sure he hopes the American people well, but is just so angry at the administration that burning what symbolizes the political entity gives him relief. And I just dont believe you should ignore him for that, especially considering that you too are angry at Bush.

Now if he were showing dead pictures of Americans and saying "Kill the Infidels!!!", then yeah, he would be anti-american. But otherwise.......I just dont see it as logical.

[Amesjustin]

It appears the main difference in our views lies in what the flag means. I love my country dearly, I just don't care for the current leader. That flag has been around a hell of a lot longer than W, and it will fly long after he has gone. It symbolizes a hell of a lot more to me than that loser.

Aside from that I think we more or less agree, just understand that especially since 9/11, that flag has also come to mean the coming together of the american people in a way that I have never seen before in my life. Seeing someone burning it is akin to someone defiling a holy artifact. I don't think you understand that.

As I said before you have the right to express yourself, but I for one am offended greatly by it. And I am a pretty hard person to offend.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Amesjustin
It appears the main difference in our views lies in what the flag means. I love my country dearly, I just don't care for the current leader. That flag has been around a hell of a lot longer than W, and it will fly long after he has gone. It symbolizes a hell of a lot more to me than that loser.

Yep. But for me, it simply symbolizes whatever the current country is doing.

I loved the SU greatly too, but I burned many Soviet flags.....MANY

Seeing someone burning it is akin to someone defiling a holy artifact.

I can understand it, I just dont agree with all the value you put into a flag.

But thats a difference of opinion never to be resolved

[muxec]

Would Ming tolerate me if i place warez on my avatar?

[Maniac]

Not again.

I wonder if Amesjustin even read my previous posts...

As said before, I don't like the current mainstream American political-economical-ideological system.

On the political side, I feel the American system isn't very democratic. The current Bush administration is a pawn of the energy & military industry. So the USA currently is a plutocracy, not a democracy. Sure, you'll argue that the people elected them, but the problem is all television broadcasting companies are in private hands, giving them a huge benefit to influence people's opinion. Also I don't like the two-party system. The USA's system is almost as bad as Italy's with Berlusconi.

The political side is linked with the economical side. The government's control over the economy is too weak IMO, leaving free reign to corporate abuses, such as the above-mentioned monopolisation of the media industry. There should be more rules and regulations to prevent social and environmental abuses. Also more government sponsoring of education, health care, public transport etc to ensure equal opportunities.

On the ideological side I don't like the libertarian ideology, as you might have guessed from the two previous paragraphs. Also I don't like the growing ethical conservativeness / christian fundamentalism. Also I don't buy the propaganda that the War in Iraq would be about freedom and democracy, and destruction of WMD. They are factors, but certainly not the most important.

As you can read, the USA's system is not at all similar to what I would desire, so I don't like them being the only world power. I'd rather see the European Union, of which the pol-eco systems of its prime members are closer to my own ideology, as another world power in a multipolar world.

So my issues with the USA are mostly structural in nature. It goes further than a simple dislike of the Bush administration, but it's ridiculous to claim I would feel hatred towards the entire American people.

[badams52]

I can see how asking whether to ban the American flag from avatars is an apolyton/community subject and Ming already answered that question. Shouldn't your new fights about burning the flag be taken to the off-topic forum?

[Amesjustin]

I merely explained why I found the avatar offensive. I don't plan on responding any more to their arguments, because they are moot. I mentioned before what flag-burning really means, why I find the avatars offensive, why the avatars should stay public, and why people who find it truly offensive should just choose to ignore the offensive user or turn off avatars.

The name of the thread is 'Why is this tolerated?' While I agree with the original poster that anyone who uses this avatar does not really understand what it represents, I can see why the moderators SHOULD tolerate it. It is up to each user to decide whether or not THEY should tolerate it.

Tell me, bAdams52 where I have strayed from the topic?

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Maniac
Not again.

I wonder if Amesjustin even read my previous posts...

As said before, I don't like the current mainstream American political-economical-ideological system.

On the political side, I feel the American system isn't very democratic. The current Bush administration is a pawn of the energy & military industry. So the USA currently is a plutocracy, not a democracy. Sure, you'll argue that the people elected them, but the problem is all television broadcasting companies are in private hands, giving them a huge benefit to influence people's opinion. Also I don't like the two-party system. The USA's system is almost as bad as Italy's with Berlusconi.

The political side is linked with the economical side. The government's control over the economy is too weak IMO, leaving free reign to corporate abuses, such as the above-mentioned monopolisation of the media industry. There should be more rules and regulations to prevent social and environmental abuses. Also more government sponsoring of education, health care, public transport etc to ensure equal opportunities.

On the ideological side I don't like the libertarian ideology, as you might have guessed from the two previous paragraphs. Also I don't like the growing ethical conservativeness / christian fundamentalism. Also I don't buy the propaganda that the War in Iraq would be about freedom and democracy, and destruction of WMD. They are factors, but certainly not the most important.

As you can read, the USA's system is not at all similar to what I would desire, so I don't like them being the only world power. I'd rather see the European Union, of which the pol-eco systems of its prime members are closer to my own ideology, as another world power in a multipolar world.

So my issues with the USA are mostly structural in nature. It goes further than a simple dislike of the Bush administration, but it's ridiculous to claim I would feel hatred towards the entire American people.

First off, I agree this is not the right forum for a political debate. If you would like to start a thread in the OT forum we can continue it there.

Pretty pointless though, since MY point is that at least to us Americans, flag burning DOES express hatred toward everything American including the people. I have read your previous arguments, and again they are moot. If you would have read MY previous posts you would have known that I only partially disagree with your arguments. What I take issue with is your insensitivity towards Americans and what our flag means to us. Think of flag burning as someone defecating on the most holy object of whatever religion you belong to. Very offensive indeed.

People find flag burning offensive because they take it as a personal attack against them everything about their lives (If they are amereican). An THAT is why they find it offensive, and THAT is why this thread is here.