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  • #16
    The Pyschology of Killing

    A quick intro to the pyschology of Killing:

    http://web.qx.net/warcat/MilSF/Killing.htm

    A lengthier resource:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...109850-8512663

    Not all computer games encourage violence. But some do.

    The problem isn't that video games mimic reality too much, but that modern warfare mimics video games too much. You aren't killing people, you are pressing a button to send a missile or shell to blow up a blip on your screen. War is dehumanizing by nature. Playing video games helps soldiers treat war like a game, and they will "play" that game as they have been trained by habit to. They will not stop to consider the ramifications of pressing that button or pulling that trigger. That is the "problem".

    Of course, some people don't see that as a problem. The military certainly does not.

    I would doubt Civ does the same as FPS's on a personal level, but it would not surprise me if grognards and hardcore civ strat players (including Civ, MOO, Starcraft, AoK, etc...) were more supportive of large scale warfare. When news reports come about distant conflicts, we don't see the actual personal devastation - just that target X was destroyed, target Y captured, Army group A has taken City B, Army C has been destroyed by missile attacks, etc... very much like a wargame.

    With a FPS, real blood becomes video game pixels. War, it's just a game. With a strat game, real blood isn't even acknowledged or modeled.

    I'll keep my opinion on 9/11, afghanistan, and the current mid-east crisis out of it, but it would be interesting to see how a person's opinion of how the US and Israel should act - compares to that person's experience in Civ style games and their play-style. Are Civ 3 megalomaniacs really avid supporters of real-life US or Israeli retaliation? Are Civ 3 peaceniks truly balanced in their opined solutions? Are Civ 3 warmongers more likely to support NATO, large militaries, intervention? Are Civ 3 builders more likely to support real-life education and health care concerns, willing to sacrifice their military? Who really knows?
    Most studies deal with FPS's, not wargames.

    The connection is hard to prove, but I can see it being there.
    Proud Citizen of the Civ 3 Demo Game
    Retired Justice of the Court, Staff member of the War Academy, Staff member of the Machiavelli Institute
    Join the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game! ~ Play the Civ 3 Demo Game $Mini-Game!
    Voici mon secret. Il est très simple: on ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


      Some parralels yes. But Ender and company were kids that were being trained/brain washed whilst Army use young adults of legal age/citizenry. The big point 'bout Enders Game was the corruption of youth not so much the fact that war game trained folks to be efficient killers.
      Training people to be efficient killers is a lot like brainwashing if you ask me...
      I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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      • #18
        Re: The Pyschology of Killing

        Originally posted by Captain

        I'll keep my opinion on 9/11, afghanistan, and the current mid-east crisis out of it, but it would be interesting to see how a person's opinion of how the US and Israel should act - compares to that person's experience in Civ style games and their play-style. Are Civ 3 megalomaniacs really avid supporters of real-life US or Israeli retaliation? Are Civ 3 peaceniks truly balanced in their opined solutions? Are Civ 3 warmongers more likely to support NATO, large militaries, intervention? Are Civ 3 builders more likely to support real-life education and health care concerns, willing to sacrifice their military? Who really knows?
        Most studies deal with FPS's, not wargames.

        The connection is hard to prove, but I can see it being there.
        My strategy for taking over the world:

        Build loads and loads of wonders and city improvements to jack up your culture rating. Then sit back and slowly devour culturally weak nations while you stock up on defensive units to defend yourself from those who don´t like your culture imperialism. Much like the US without the world police behaviour...
        I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Kamrat X


          Training people to be efficient killers is a lot like brainwashing if you ask me...
          No arguement. But the reason why Ender's Game was so successful in driving home that same point was that it was barinwashing of children. For whatever reason brainwashing adults is considered a less heinous crime in our society.
          "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

          “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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          • #20
            consdering the filth in adult brains in our society not washing them would be a heinous crime....especially Ming's...

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            • #21
              Very good post, Captain. I´ve noticed some of that myself actually. I´ve played quite a lot of flight simulators, and now when i see news reports from wars and conflicts, what really interests me is what type of weapons that are used. When I think about it, I actually get a little frightened - shouldn´t I instead think of all the people that get killed and wounded and have their life destroyed in many other ways because of the war?

              I think that to be affected by computer games to do anything really stupid like killing another man, something is wrong with your brain long before that action. But the question is, would you have done that if you hadn´t played all the games and got yourself a more "non-caring" attitude? I think that many of the first person-shooter games like Doom and Quake and whatever they are called are a bit scary with all details of blood and killed people. And when I see young kids playing those games shouting "wow, I blow that guy into pieces, look at all that blood! I get a feeling that something´s not really right...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


                No arguement. But the reason why Ender's Game was so successful in driving home that same point was that it was barinwashing of children. For whatever reason brainwashing adults is considered a less heinous crime in our society.
                Could it be because the ruling elite know they would be toast if people started thinking for themselves?

                @jimmytrick...
                I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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                • #23
                  Awaiting the day when an army sits in a room controlling virtual soldiers.
                  Grrr | Pieter Lootsma | Hamilton, NZ | grrr@orcon.net.nz
                  Waikato University, Hamilton.

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                  • #24
                    Ever hear of a UAV?
                    Seemingly Benign
                    Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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                    • #25
                      What, you don't think children's brains are equally filthy? Freud might've come up with some wacky-crack ideas, but if you just toss out enough theories eventually you're going to get one or two right. The only difference is that the filth in adults' brains is in a later stage of decomposition.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kamrat X
                        But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL.

                        It´s really quite a frightening revelation that.

                        Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?
                        Needless to say, distance must be the cause of this... in WW1, cases of fraternization between German and French soldiers were frequent. I don't think any such thing would be possible when one side is 30,000 feet away in a stealth fighter... Anyway, US propaganda is excellent. During the Golf war, journalists were prevented from going to the front lines (imagine the horror, NATO soldiers mutilated by toxic gas, children dismantled by US missiles). Instead, they only air pictures of collapsed buildings (just like a flight sim) but when they bombed Serbia every atrocity commited by the Serbs was showed on TV, in order to justify the attacks against Milosevic.
                        In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Kamrat X
                          But it also dehumanizes the combat. Reports from Desert Storm revealed that fighter pilots sometimes thought it was a game rather than RL.

                          It´s really quite a frightening revelation that.

                          Does anyone else see parallells to Orson Scott Cards "Enders Game" ?
                          Sounds a lot like the plot of Metal Gear Solid 2....

                          Seriously, it does make sense to use computer games for military training. A military flight simulator, for all it's worth, is little more than an arcade game on speed. I don't believe mainstream computer games have evolved to a point where a soldier can learn tactical thinking -- after all, your simply fighting against an AI interface that is only as good as it's programmer. For example, take the ineffective use of artilery and helicopters by the AI in Civ3. But, IMO, can definitely fine tune a soldiers strategic thinking... Things like managing chokepoints, resources, base placement, etc.

                          BTW, the DoD has developed Command & Conquer type of simulations to teach battlefield strategy. There was a game on the market recently claiming to be a watered-down version of that program, but I've never played it and won't comment on it.

                          -- twistedx

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kamrat X


                            Could it be because the ruling elite know they would be toast if people started thinking for themselves?
                            Ahh, a devotee of Chomsky I see not only by your sig but by comments as well. Interesting some of his writings and his video was compelling as well. I don't buy all of it but some makes sense on an intellectual level.

                            For example, I simply take offense to his compete disdain for sports. Hockey afterall is a sublime human endeavor.
                            "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                            “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                            • #29
                              What, you guys have never heard of Marine Corps Doom?
                              Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


                                Ahh, a devotee of Chomsky I see not only by your sig but by comments as well. Interesting some of his writings and his video was compelling as well. I don't buy all of it but some makes sense on an intellectual level.
                                Devotee is a strong word... I read his books an think he´s right about almost everything. But I don´t worship the man as the new Karl Marx or something...

                                For example, I simply take offense to his compete disdain for sports. Hockey afterall is a sublime human endeavor.
                                I don´t care much for sports, unless it´s The Olympics or World Cup or something...

                                Oncle Boris:
                                I love being beaten by women - Lorizael

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