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**Immortal Wombat** · April 21, 2002, 18:14

So that means many cheap advances, or many branches to choose from...?

**loinburger** · April 22, 2002, 21:20

Another issue that I think ought to be included in a good tech tree is:

Tech Synergy: Diversifying your tech research among various fields will have the effect of possibly producing a synergistic increase in your rate of research. Different tech fields will have different relations to other tech fields ("Biology" and "Mathematics" might be 50% related, for example, while "Art" and "Mathematics" might be 5% related, and "Physics" and "Mathematics" would be 90% related). This relation level affects the likelihood of a synergistic tech increase as well as its magnitude. (For example, if you place 10 tech points in "Mathematics" and 10 tech points in "Physics," after the synergistic increase you would effectively have, let's say, 14 tech points in "Mathematics" and 12 tech points in "Physics;" place 10 tech points in "Mathematics" and "Art" respectively and you'll probably receive no bonus.) Probability and magnitude of synergistic tech increase is also affected by your relations with other Civs (if you trade ideas and good freely with several Civs then your synergy increases, if you have closed borders then it suffers), as well as how freely ideas flow through your society (partially due to culture, e.g. a culture that embraces ambition might have scientists who are more likely to be secretive about their research and who would therefore not benefit as much from tech synergy as a culture that embraces knowledge for the sake of knowledge and/or perfection; this is also partially affected by your government type or by how paranoid you are of spies, e.g. a democracy would ordinarily have a high chance of synergy due to freedom of speech, but if the government is extremely paranoid then synergy will suffer as many citizens would rather stay silent and avoid the hassle and embarassment of a government probe). Various techs will also become more/less related as they progress ("Biology" and "Mathematics" might be 10% related in ancient times, but in modern times with the advent of Bio-Informatics this relation factor would dramatically increase); minor techs especially might have a large effect on the level of synergy between two or more major techs. This also presents an interesting quandary when attempting to figure out the optimal balance of where to put your tech points: for example, field A and field B are 30% related, so putting 10 tech points into field A and B respectively will result in 12 points effectively being put into both techs; however, putting all 20 tech points into field A might effectively reduce your total number of tech points by 4, but it will also allow you to research the next advancement in field A much more quickly, and it might well be that the next advance in field A will increase the relation factor betwen fields A and B to 80%, which would increase the synergy between the two fields such that the increased number of bonus tech points will more than make up for your sacrificing 4 bonus tech points previously.

This ought to make tech research so bloody complicated that having a Ph.D in mathematics will guarantee that you squash your poor math illiterate opponents.

**Bleyn** · April 23, 2002, 04:47

Re: Designing The Ultimate Tech Tree

1. Starting Date

Around 4000 BC.

2. Ending Date

Around 2200 AD sounds good. I'd like to see a little more depth in the future tech but not much.

3. Ages - Yes/No
Hmmm...
I'd have to say yes, even if it is just mostly a graphical change. I mean it would look really silly if the cities were all still mud huts when you had tanks and jets.

3. Ages - Which?
Ancient
Middle Ages
Industrial Age/Age of Reason/Age of Discovery Same time period really. Very intertwined.
Modern Age
Information Age/Space Age Again, very intertwined period.

4. How Many Advances?
Maybe 100 or so. Both Major and Minor. But every tech should have some improvement, unit, change, or something related to it. Even the future techs.

5. Linearity vs. Holisticness
Definitely a holistic tech tree of some sort. Among the things I wouldn't mind seeing are different tech trees for different civilizations, and seperate research of major and minor advances.

By different tech trees, I mean that if you choose to play the Aztecs that there are certain techs you might have that only you can research, and certain ones that you can't research. And they would be different from the Russians or the Chinese. And that is not to say that these techs would have to be so unique that no other civ can have them, but that if they want them, they have to trade for them or capture them. It would also be somewhat realistic.

As for seperate research of major and minor techs, the idea is thus... The major techs are the ones that are required for advancing through the ages, and you can only research one at a time. Minor techs are not required for advancement, and perhaps are not even completely required to get other techs. They might be minor improvements or variations on a theme such as the archers/horse archers idea someone mentioned. As part of this perhaps you could be researching one or more minor techs at the same time as the major tech. I dare say, I wouldn't mind if there wasn't even a limit to the number of minors that you could be working on, except perhaps that in general the more pans you have in the fire the longer it takes for everything to cook as it were.

Playing into this could also be that having more of the minor techs researched could pay off later in causing other techs to cost less than their base rate. To use some techs from Civ3 in an example, lets take Free Artistry and Ecology. Free Artistry would be a minor tech that dead ends. Ecology would be a major tech on the main line. The idea is that if someone has researched Free Artistry they could eventually get a reduction in the research cost of Ecology. The reasoning... the arts are and for many centuries have been a core aspect of a liberal arts education. This same sort of education also tends to encourage the person to think about the world around them in some fairly abstract and philisophical manners. If a civ has Free Artistry, then there people would be more likely to think philisophically, and when they were researching Ecology that philisophical/abstract thought mode would synergize and speed up the research. (its not a perfect example, but I think you know what I mean).

6. Occidentocentrism, and Cause and Effect in Civilization

As you might guess from above, I'm not 100% bound to having a Western oriented tech tree. Different tech trees for different civs would be cool.

Another way of varying things that comes to mind is having techs that mean different things to different civs. One example that comes to mind is gunpowder. IIRC, yes, the Chinese had gunpower for much longer than everyone else, but they didn't really use it in warfare to any extent. It was much more a thing for making fireworks and firecrackers for more peaceful, "cultural" purposes. It was the more western peoples like the Turks who saw its potential for mayhem. So perhaps gunpowder might be an early minor tech for the Chinese, that when they discover doesn't imediately give applications for warfare. Perhaps it is a major tech for other civs, but one that they have to wait much longer to get to on their own. It could even be set up such that if the chinese traded gunpowder to another civ, they end up with their form of the tech, and perhaps after a certain time could trade it(or another tech back), thus resulting in an advance for the Chinese of the major tech sort.

Another example of this would be the Aztecs/Mayans and the wheel. They knew about it, they just didn't use it in a fashion anywhere near that of most of the rest of the world.

**Pedrunn** · April 23, 2002, 10:56

Ages

As i saw in school, the division of ages is according to the way the economy goes by. If i am not confusing names it was Marx and Engels that implemented the concept of Ways of Production (dont know if this is the exatly name since i am translating from portuguese). As i sid is the related to how the economy interact with the needs of a certain population. They even divided the ages with this concept. According to them ther is four age.
Ancient - From the development of writting (4000 BC) to the fall of the roman empire (469 AD)
Medieval - From the fall of the Roman Empire (469 AD) to the conquest of Constatinopla by the Turks (1459)
Modern - from the conquest of Constatinopla by the Turks (1459) to the France Revolution (1789)
Contemporary - from the France Revolution (1789) to nowadays.

I heard that english colonized do not accept this last agebecause it start in a France related event (The France Revolution -1789). But this is how we divide here in Brazil. I did made interpretations to add more diversity and a better gameplay. So here is my idea of how ages should be divided. And how i plan to implement in my Absolute State Mod for CTP2. In this mod what you change is the Economic System (way of production) since it comes from the idea that in civ/ctp games the human interacts as a dictator, a Absolute King. Democracy seems unreal since you decide even in wich tile a worker will harvest or where should a farm be build.
Start in 4000 BC is quite ok for me but i wouldnt mind a game starting in pre-history or in 3000 AD.

1) Ancient Age 4000 BC - 1500 BC (Estimated/rounded)
---Marked by the formation of the middle asian societies, like Egyptians, Hebrews, Babylonian, etc. They had a society in wich the citzens lived controled by theocratic governors in a relation of coletive forced work bust still keeping their rights (Servants). This was called the Asian Way of Production but to keep the universalism i called Coletivism. In Game: From the development of Wrtting to Philosophy.

2) Classical Age 1500 BC - 500 AD (Estimated/rounded)
---This is a characteristic of the mediterranean societies like Roman and Greece. This period i history is included in the ancient age. Yet i insert since it happened in the late Ancient age. It was based wich the economy was moved by the work of a Slaves wich had no rights. I called Slavery (since i am not english born should i call Slavism?) In Game: From the development of Philosophy to Feudalism.

3) Medieval Age 500 AD - 1500 AD (Estimated/rounded)
---The fall of Rome started a new era wich had the Frenchs in the main character. When Magno divided his power with the Feudal Sir (Is this name right?) giving the territory so that they could control. The King became representative needing to ask/beg for their help. This system based on the work of servants for the Feudal Sir was called Feudalism. In Game: From the development of Feudalism to Nationalism.

4) Modern Age 1500 AD - 1800 AD (Estimated/rounded)
---The kings had very little power in the Medieval Age. So to restore their power they allied with the Burguesy (Merchant Class). Demand the centralization of the power in their hand. It was the Absoltism in the politic branch (national States) wich had the Mechantilism as the economic couterpart. This system was based in the primitive acumulation of capital (Metalism). In Game: From the development of Nationalism to Industrial Revolution.

5) Industrial Age 1800 AD - 1950 AD (Estimated/rounded)
---This should be the conteporary age since i want to go after this age i did changed the name to become less contraditory. It started with the prove that the Iluminist ideals were the best option like the division of the 3 powers, liberalism and freedom of speech. Started by the US in 1776 but marked in a eurocentric view by the French Revolution in 1789. Wich is marked by the Capitalism that different from Primitive Accumulation of Capital of the Merchantilism it advertise tha the best way to gain money is spending it. The need of investments. In Game: From the development of Industrial Revolution to Computers.

6) Information Age 1950 AD - 2100 (Estimated/rounded)
---This was my idea to have this age based on others games and mods. The development of mass media, transports and communications after II GM was huge. And led the world to the current state of the capitalism characterized by the globalization and Neoliberalism. It is our real-life current age started with computers.

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Future Ages and Endig Date

Now we are going over a very contraditory aspect that really depends of the person who is playing and the game porpouse.
The creator has a high demand of creativity to come up with ideas that many wont like. In CTP2 (wich is my game) the future goes with Genetic and Diamond. But i did not think genetics was that important in the game to bve a total change in military, science, production and economy. So i changed it to cybernetic and added the Future Age. Yet you could add Nano Age, Space Age, Eco Age, Nuclear Age, Anti-Matter Age, InterDimensional Age, etc ... And you we will never achieve a point on wich one is the best. You will never please someone. So i do think that we should leve for a while and try to design the Ultimate Tech tree until a few decades after this on (I would say 2100 AD) but i do think that the games has to go over 3000 AD to be good
--Pedunn

**Pedrunn** · April 23, 2002, 12:40

Governments

I like to think of civ/ctp games as a simulation of a nation controlled with ironfist. We do control even how many hour a day your people should work, how much money they gain and even how much food the receive! How happy they should be!!!

. Not to mention what should be build in a city and what to research without asking permission to anyone.
So i do like to implement Economic systems. In the last post i showen some economic systems (Ways of Production). And will give others here that i think should be implemented.

Subsistence - Pre-historic Comunities.
Coletivism - Acient Egypt, Babylonians, Meso Americans
Slavery - Romans, Greeks, Africans, Arabs before muhamad
Fundamentalism - Calvin Swiss, Afeghanisthan today
Feudalism - Medieval Europe, Feudal Japan
Merchantilism - Renaissance Europe, Arabs after Muhamand
Capitalism - Most of the countries today
Socialism - URSS, China, North Korea, Cuba
Totalitarism - Fascism, Nazism, Salazanism and military dictorships
Neoliberalism - I dont know any totally noliberal nation (Asiatic Tigers?)
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Corporativism - Cyberpunk scnarios of nation controlled by multinationals
Ecotopia - From CTP2, based on ecologic aproachs
Technocracy From CTP2, controlled by scientists (better name?)

Any suggestions?

**dunk** · April 23, 2002, 15:07

Re: Designing The Ultimate Tech Tree

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Starting Date?
Ending Date?
Ages?
Which Ages?
Number of Advances?
Structure of Tree?
Thoughts on Occidentocentrism?
Thoughts on Specific and General Cause and Effect?
Governmental Advances?
Other?

Start... 4000 BC is fine. There weren't very many cities around before this. 5000 - 4000 BC is when SOME people stopped wandering around and built permanent settlements.

End... Selectable.

Ages... Selectable.

Which Ages... All of them, but you can pick a set of them to play through (obviously, they would need to be chronological). This would be good for scenarioes. For example, you can only play in the Industrial Ages for an American Civil War scenario. That way, research can be allowed but it will never leave that era if you don't want it too.

Number of Advances... As many as possible without having a tech pop up every turn. 2 - 3 is ok by me.

Structure of Tree... I like your model.

Westernism... If you're going to use ages, they have to be based on some kind of culture. People mention gunpowder. The Chinese didn't use it much for weapons. That's what we westerners did. If there are no ages, only military units become an issue with this. But then again, muskets can't exist without gunpowder, ocean-faring ships can't exist without a navigational system, swords can't exist without Iron Working.

Cause and Effect... Some of the buildings, units, and techs are linked to seemingly odd things simply for game balance. There would be too much money in the game if Banking could be discovered right after Currency.

Government Advances... Some governments are philisophical ideas in their own right. ie, the Republic is ok as a tech, but it should also allow Democracy. Communism is also a philosophy in its own right, so that's ok to be a tech. I think Despotism should disappear with the discovery of Polytheism or Ceremonial Burial and simply become Monarchy. I mean, a clever despot would simply declare himself "King" and claim he was chosen by the gods once an organized religion was established. More governments would be fun, but with the current model, new ones wouldn't add much to the game.

Other... Bananas!!!

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Designing The Ultimate Tech Tree

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