Civ3 vs EU2

[Kautilya]

The game has just been released and though I haven't played it I thought it would be interesting to write about some of the differences in the things that Paradox (developer of EU) and Firaxis/Infrogames do with respect to their fan base.

I know some of you don't like the core gameplay of EU but as you will see I am comparing them on criteria which transcend the gameplay differences.


1) Beta testing: EU2 has had extensive beta testing with outside beta testers for many weeks now. Some of them are the forum regulars at the EU forums. Immediately this means that some of the most experienced players will have a chance to examine the game closely before it's been released. Can you imagine how much better Civ 3 would have been if people like Korn and Velocyrix had been doing the beta-testing? Some people have suggested that it takes too many resources to have outside beta-testing but AFAIK Paradox is smaller than Firaxis and it doesn't seem to have stopped them.


2) Patching: The first patch has already been announced and it will be released in days !! And this isn't because the game has some terrible bugs but just to give gamers the improvements that Paradox has made just before release as soon as possible. Compare that with Firaxis where we don't know when the patch is coming or what it will contain.

3)Freebies: I am told that EU box comes with a world map with all the EU2 provinces and the flags of the various countries. No one was told about this before. What a nice gesture!! Compare that with the Civ 3 LE where they didn't even give the things that were promised.

4) Interaction before the game: While Dan Magha and Soren Johnson have done a good job of interacting with fans after the game was released, there wasn't much interaction before. With EU however the Paradox team is seen regularly on the forums and actually consults with and listens to fans about what they want. I think that also has helped make it a better game.


I believe that if you take all these points it is hard not to conclude that Firaxis isn't as interested in the fan-base as Paradox. Regardless of what you feel about the respective games this means that Civ 3 is not as good as it could have been and that EU2 is a better game than it would otherwise have been.

BTW if any of you want to discuss to the gameplay differences go right ahead.

[Matte979]

Good point.. Firaxis are lazy and spoiled.

Go Sweden go.. Both games will be good eventually but I
bet that EU II will reach its full potential much faster.
Civ3 might sadly not do that ever..
But still both are very good games if you are a strategy game
player.

/Mathias

[CDN_Harbinger]

Sorry, I have Civilization tunnel vision - what does EU stand for. Is it turn-based?

Thanks.

[Kautilya]

EU= Europa Universalis. It is a grand strategy game like Civ but set in 1419 to 1820 (for EU2).

Actually it is real-time but don't confuse it with AOK or C&C type of real time; it is probably deeper than Civ in terms of gameplay and certainly a lot more historical. The real-time engine means you can have lots more countries simulatanously, almost 200 in EU2.


Check out the website:

https://www.europa-universalis.com

[Döbeln_2001]

Yea, EU 2 is definately on my shortlist of games to get ASAP...

Regards / Döbeln 2001

-Stabil som fan!

[m_m_x]

a counter discussion at eu2 forums

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=20483

[RobRoy]

Originally posted by CDN_Harbinger
Is it turn-based?

It's really turn-based with a timer turned on, so it'll feel somewhat real-time for the real-time fans. There is a pause button (which I use heavily), and you can set how frequently the days/months/years tick by. Frankly, the way I play it, it is more like a traditional turn-based game (but that is not the recommended method of play).

[Altuar]

The game covers over 300 years and at the slowest setting time ticks by 2 minutes to a month. You do the math.

[squid]

This EU2 looks like a freakin' board game of Risk or something, except it's not Risk, and it's not a board game.

Very cartoony and screwed up, in my opinion. If I want to play Risk or Axis and Allies, I would do so instead. But a jigsaw glossy map and units holding these preset "sectors" of land looks
very contrived in my opinion.

[Simple Girl]

1. As far as I remember, beta testers for EU2 were chosen arbitrary, not based on experience of players and most active member of EU board. So, nothing follows immediately.

2. Too bad for not even released game to have patch already, while Firaxis will release patch a month later giving enough time to players to explore thoroughly the game. So here we have real experience of real numoerous players, not just several beta testers.

3. Nice. But I am not sure what world map is included. If it is EU2 map, then well, I am not impressed at all. I remember playing Russia in EU1, and almost all map was wrong and not historical, something EU players are proud of, historically accurate. For example , there were provinces "Kuibyshev" and "Samara". Yeah, in 1500, lol, Kuibyshev was born in 19 c. and was active member of october revolution in russia. And besides, Kuibyshev and Samara is the same province, Kuibyshev was renamed to Samara in 1991. So, map , let's say, is not quite accurate , if not say wrong mostly.

4. Interaction is important. But, I prefer Firaxis's way, remember several months ago we didnt know anything about Civ3? and any bit of info was accepted with alot of excitement? No intrigue with EU2, no surprises, no long nights learing new features, we know from the beginning what's in there. In the end, there are lots of fans and everyone has its own opinion about a game. Good game developers do not consult fans during making game, they just make it so good that anyone enjoys it eventually, independently of bugs and all that jazz.

EU is a great game, but just not as fun as Civ , and no number of patches , no interaction level of team with players, no inculded maps and so on will not ever make game better. So, if you have real arguments why EU2 is better than Civ3 then go right ahead...

[Kautilya]

1.Actually the forum mods like BiB and Vulture, who are the most active forum members, were made beta-testers which ensured that some really experienced players would have their say.

2.Your second point only makes sense if you assume that the first patch will be the last patch. EU had 9 patches IIRC so I expect there to be more this time as well. Do you really think it's better that the first patch is released after 2 months than in the first week. The main point is that we don't even know when or what will be patched.

3. Don't know about the specific points you raise. Inevitably there were some inaccuracies in the map many of which have been cleared up in EU2. It's still a hell of a lot more accurate than anything in Civ though. In any case the point was that it was a nice gesture to include a little extra stuff for the fans.

4. What were the great features that were a surprise in Civ 3? There will be plenty of surprises in EU2 especially all the different events.
You don't have to put in everything the fans want but listening to their ideas certainly doesn't hurt.

I don't much want to get into a discussion of the gameplay in the two games because it's a matter of taste. I like both genres but IMO the greater realism, better diplomacy (especially since there are so many nations) and less tedious micromanagement puts EU ahead.

Also EU2 ships with improved multiplayer and scenarios; contrast that with the fact that Civ3 has neither, doesn't have a proper scenario editor and there is no information on when these things will be included.

[dainbramaged13]

on point 4... WRONG you must not have been here... they posted plenty

[Kautilya]

Why was this moved here? If you had to move it, Other games would have been more logical?

DB,
There was some interaction but much less than with EU. Here it was basically just Dan Magha perhaps posting once every few days ( which would be made a news item).

With EU there would be several posts every day and by more than one Paradox member. And with EU the communication went both ways ; the team would actually listen to what the fans said.

[Simple Girl]

OK it doesnt have much sense to reply now when I do not have EU2, I will get it soon though, but:

1. with all my respect, I dont think game has to reflect personal preferences the forum mods like BiB and Vulture, even though they are the most active members of the board.

2. I just wanted to say that it is much serisous to make patch later to inculde as much bugs as possible than have patch already for not released game. It just says about beta-condition of EU2.

3. Civ3 is not so pretensious as EU2 and just sets approximate general settings, as the earth, nations culture etc. I though agree that some reasonable maps would be nice. While EU2 takes this responsobility to be historically accurate and fails not only in specific points i mentioned, but almost everywhere. Its just happened I know Russia better than any other country, and it is just not serious to have wrong map of such a huge country as Russia.

4. Again, I was trying to say that finding out every little detail about Civ3 was really exciting, there was some kind of intrigue, there were though lots of interviews with Firaxis, but till the end it was surpirse, while EU2 is "scripted " by its nature.

Cannot comment about multiplayer and editor, do not have game yet. Scenario editor is OK in Civ3, even not the best, and as I read now in EU board there is no scenario editor at all. Yes there is no MP, too bad for Civ3 , but still not essential point.

I think we just have different ideology about every point But it is just offensive to post here how bad Civ3 is comparing to EU, and it is offensive even more when you read in EU borad that EU gets " A+" and Civ gets "F" . Well, I played both and still find EU a very boring and straightforward game with lots of mistakes, less detailed, less intelligent, but well, I never went to EU board to express what I think, just because I know people there really love it, and respect is not that bad thing at all

[Dauphin]

Will someone tell me if it is out in the UK. I can't be bothered to go out to the shops unless I know that its out. Thanx.