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**Lefty Scaevola** · January 6, 2001, 15:23

Without commenting upon the merits of the question, I would like to compliment EVC on a well crafted post. i am very pleased to see young persons with rational debate skills.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited January 06, 2001).]</font>

**MarkG** · January 6, 2001, 15:25

as far as i know, you are still free

- to start your own forum and post whatever you like
- try posting what you want in other forums
- say whatever you like on private discussions

so i fail to see how a decision of ours to not allow certain discussions(btw, i have no clue what exactly you are talking about) is harmfull to the individual(you in this case)

**EVC** · January 6, 2001, 15:36

Mark, any post I make that basically isn't SPAM or humorous is deleted by the moderator often without even being read. I'm often asked by other posters why I don't spend more time engaging in intelligent discussion of my own, I can't as every time I do "Big Brother" quiets me.

I am very seriously wronged here! <font color=red>I view someone whose efforts are in attempt to erase memory of an individual's very existence to the same degree as murder (some cases even worse).</font>

I would like to think that there is just a misunderstanding here because this issue is very serious if it is intentional.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>so i fail to see how a decision of ours to not allow certain discussions(btw, i have no clue what exactly you are talking about) is harmfull to the individual(you in this case)
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

You wouldn't have a clue exactly what I'm speaking of because Ming deletes the thread/evidence before anyone even gets a chance to read it.

It is clearly an abuse of power, as with the 8-hour post rule he can effectively keep my threads silent for as long as he wishes.

I have another thread that I posted that was deleted instantly. I posted the equivalent at ACOL here:
http://www.an.i-dentity.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/012764.html

**MacUser** · January 6, 2001, 16:18

Having looked at your post on ACOL, I agree with Ming. Discussing the merits of a race vs racism is a VERY iffy topic and the discussion could quickly descend into hateful racism (you only have to look at the posts regarding Gays to see this happen). Overall the OT Forum is a free-for-all with limited rules. Considering the number of heated political and religious threads, I really don't see censorship as a problem except when you step outside the established rules. Everyone seems to think that Freedom of Speech is a "right" guaranteed everywhere you go. It is not. When you are in a private arena (be virtual or physical) you have to play by their rules. Period. As an extreme example, if you go into a synagogue on a Friday night shouting pro-Nazi slander, you'll get kicked out. However, you're free to stand on a public sidewalk and do the same thing, albeit at some personal risk! Play nice on ACS and I'm sure you'll get along fine with Ming. Truthfully, he has a hell'ava job keeping OT in line!

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Be what you is and not what you is not. Folks who do that are the happiest lot!
- Mr. Wizard the Lizard,

**Ming** · January 6, 2001, 16:57

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by EVC on 01-06-2001 02:36 PM</font>
I am very seriously wronged here!

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

If you have been seriously wronged here, maybe you should get out in the real world more often

Your thread on racism (as I explained in the PM to you) was a potential spam fest and hate thread in the making. Post that again, and it will also be deleted, and I will consider a vacation for you.

The second thread... your censorship thread (which I read) was moved to the Apoltyon Forum... I see now that it was never moved... This happened during the slow up at Apolyton. I did't bother to check if it had been moved, because the site was VERY SLOW at the time. Feel free to post it again in this forum... where it belongs, but not on the OTF.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

**LoD** · January 6, 2001, 17:02

MarkG: I understand your point. In my opinion however it the responsibility of the webmasters to clearly define the rules on a given BB, and, more imortandly, acting in accordance to them. If there are new rules, posters should be notified. That's not a law - that's ettiquete. Your post looks like an example of a "if you don't like me, give me back my toys!" attitude.

MacUser: Do you consider prevention, even irrational in its extent, as a panaceum? Because you are what you are saying is that, whenever a thread or post could cause some sort of unwanted behavior, it is the subject of being deleted.
Well, if you do, let me tell you this: the reason why Hitler used a de-nationalizing policy and applied mass genocide was prevention. And it had very rational grounds.

LoD

**Ming** · January 6, 2001, 17:15

LoD... Yes, compare it to Hitler... get real
You need to get out into the real world more too

This is a private site. It is the owners right to allow what they want on this site. If you don't like it, you are are always free to post somewhere else.

So to try to make a comparision between Apolyton and Naxi Germany is just a farce at best

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

**LoD** · January 6, 2001, 17:49

Ming, the most terrible thing is that you don't realize how the comparison is actually close to the truth. Think about it

OK, so you've got the site. You are offering the services for free and therefore you have, naturally, a right to establish the rules. I respect that - as I've just said in my previous post.
Nobody will punish the admins for not acting in accordance to their own rules, as long as they don't break any applicable laws. In that case, I believe you (as the admin) did not commit a crime in a legal sense. Besides, Apolyton admins have the right to erase any post for now apparent reason. But you did commit a crime in another sense - you've shown, first of all, incosistency, and, secondly, irrationality.
Maybe it is not my buisness to point that out to you. It's your private matter after all. But, you need to realize that people hate to have their own work castrated without any reason whatsoever. If you are familiar to the example of SidGames, you should understand that.

LoD

**Ming** · January 6, 2001, 18:20

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by LoD on 01-06-2001 04:49 PM</font>
But you did commit a crime in another sense - you've shown, first of all, incosistency, and, secondly, irrationality.
LoD
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it.
Any action taken will not be approved by everybody.
That's life, and I understand that.

At least you trying to make a comparison between this and sid games is more approriate that your slanderous comparison of Apolyton and Nazi Germany

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

**EVC** · January 6, 2001, 20:24

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Having looked at your post on ACOL, I agree with Ming. Discussing the merits of a race vs racism is a VERY iffy topic and the discussion could quickly descend into hateful racism (you only have to look at the posts regarding Gays to see this happen).
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Could. Preventative action it might seem but that is not what this is as I will expand upon below.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Everyone seems to think that Freedom of Speech is a "right" guaranteed everywhere you go. It is not. When you are in a private arena (be virtual or physical) you have to play by their rules. Period.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Rules. Rules which are not abided by lose their legitimacy. People in power that violate rules (that they give legitimacy to) are doing an action known as corruption (people who violate ideas are therein known as hypocrites).

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>As an extreme example, if you go into a synagogue on a Friday night shouting pro-Nazi slander, you'll get kicked out. However, you're free to stand on a public sidewalk and do the same thing, albeit at some personal risk!
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Correct but what I'm citing is not a matter of action and resulting consequence.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>If you have been seriously wronged here, maybe you should get out in the real world more often
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I've been wronged here under principle; excluding hacking, identity theft, or actions that interfere with my life offline there is not a more serious injury you could commit to me online.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Your thread on racism (as I explained in the PM to you) was a potential spam fest and hate thread in the making. Post that again, and it will also be deleted, and I will consider a vacation for you.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

The same PM which "I" engaged with you after the fact.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>The second thread... your censorship thread (which I read) was moved to the Apoltyon Forum... I see now that it was never moved... This happened during the slow up at Apolyton. I did't bother to check if it had been moved, because the site was VERY SLOW at the time.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Bullshit. I have no reason to believe that as you have removed any such proof (nor based upon precidence).

My Point:

Ming I can infer from your posts that you don't understand the issue that you are involved in. I take it you think this is meerly a "whine thread" about someone who doesn't like the fact that preventative action was taken against their attempts to incite flaming.

That would be the case had your actions been preventative instead of what they actually are:

• If I had started a thread and it caused spaming and flaming and was closed/deleted and potential punishment was applied to those in violation of the rules then it would be rule enforcement.

• If it was sensed that I was on a rampage and I was banned before my actions was taken, or if the thread was closed with explanation that the topic is not allowed (before the flaming and Spaming occur)then it would be preventative.

• When my thread is deleted without accountability and without consequences then what you are in fact doing is taking back my action (erasing my action; revisionism).

Your rules no where state anything about Moderators having the power to undo the action of a poster; only to mediate (warn) and apply consequences when appropriate.

<h2>This is a serious Technology Induced Ethics Issue!</h2>

In the offline world only government have the power to do the action that you are in fact performing. As LoD cited Nazi Germany (as well as the Soviet Union) are entities that have done comparable offenses (of erasing memories of people/ideas they didn't like).

When you erase a memory of an action then it can erase the effect of that action and when both are erased then the action has been undone.

<font color=red>This is not an issue of action and punishment but of action and subsequent undoing of that action.</font>

<u>This is not an area you should tread upon. It is "Big Brother;" it is tyranny; and above all it is wrong.</u>

Concerning "the Rules":

If you want to run this site like a dictatorship then fine that is within the owners of this sites rights.

If you claim legitimacy from the rules then by all means follow them (append/alter them) or dispel of them all together and make the rule "we are the rules" and everything else as guidelines. Granted you do the latter and I of course will leave but at least without justification for dissent based on injustice.

Note: As a private institution you cannot make contracts (registration page, and the link to the Forum FAQ) and violate them and not expect legal action to be outside possibility.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by EVC (edited January 06, 2001).]</font>

**MarkG** · January 6, 2001, 20:24

LoD, some times people forget that this is a site that has a set of civ-related forums and which also happens to have an off-topic forum. it is not a site with one part: a forum discussing anything.

in that sense, not every possible topic is allowed in the OT, and i easily say that i simply dont care if someone has a problem with that.

as for rules, our FAQ gives the guidelines in which we act(and i believe it is easily understandable by most people what we are trying to say through the FAQ), and the history of our decisions provide a more specific view of how we run things.

now, if you are fearing that nazism is coming back cause a thread on racism, worded the way evc did, was deleted in a internet civ forum, what can i say....

**EVC** · January 6, 2001, 20:31

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>as for rules, our FAQ gives the guidelines in which we act(and i believe it is easily understandable by most people what we are trying to say through the FAQ), and the history of our decisions provide a more specific view of how we run things.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Which are not consistent, nor have up until recently began "undoing posts." This being done without an alteration to the rules yet with the same defensive explanation for your action being that you are justified with the rules and "follow them or leave."

How can we follow the rules when you don't follow them nor do they apply?

**MarkG** · January 6, 2001, 20:34

EvC, exactly which part did we violate from the registration text and/or the faq?

**MarkG** · January 6, 2001, 20:40

actually evan, just forget it.
for better or worse, i'm now incapable of separating your "modes" and will keep myself from trying to make a logical discussion

end of story(for me)....

Announcement

I have a (very seroius) complaint to file with Ming the moderator of the OT Forum.

I have a (very seroius) complaint to file with Ming the moderator of the OT Forum.

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