Discussion: Coups, etc

[GeneralTacticus]

While discussing the basic government structure for the ACSPG, the subject of coups to remove people in power came up, but AFAIK, we enver agreed on a set of rules regarding them - and we should, as they would be a rather important element in Hive politics.

My own suggestion would be for the coup starter to announce their intentions in a thread (probably after extensive discussions with others), and state who theyw ere attempting to overthrow, and then others would post their support or opposition in that thread, with ordinary citizens having one 'vote' each, and those in positions of greater influence (Ministers - especially miltiary ones - Politburo members, etc) having more.

Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Better suggestions?

[Nubclear]

Maybe the Chairman General Secretary shouldn't be able to vote in the poll? However, he could influence his military, politburo, etc to vote for him.

[GeneralTacticus]

I think the General Secretary should be allowed to take part just like anybody else - he might even be the one launching the coup, trying to take control of the Council of Ministers.

[Octavian X]

Some ideas....

~All officials can be targeted by a coup. The Politurbo may be targetted only as a single whole, General Secretary and Chairman included, though both Chairman and General Secretary may be targetted indivdually

~Public Vote. Rather than anonymous-response ones, people must publically voice their support for the leaders of the coup, or for the person under fire. Just to make people think before acting, and giving a chance to the leader who could be overthrown.

~Weighted vote. Some leaders simply have more political sway. For example, the General Secretary could have influence as the highest Hiverian power. The Secretary for Factional Defense would have the might of the military. The Science Dept. could use it's technological edge. The Secretary for Foreign Affairs could call in outside powers, and the First Secretaries of the various Republics could use local support of their respective districts. The Secretary for Economic Policies could divert energy toward his goal. The Chairman, as a powerful leader, has that advantage.
You get the point.

~Multiple targets. Various people on one side of an issue could try to take out people on the other side.

~Spoils of war. The sponser of the coup choses who gets to replace the oustered leader, assuming the coup is sucessful

~Public Shame. leaders of failed coup, due to the public outrage over the incident, are forced to leave all offices they hold (Politurbo included) for the remainder if the term. They may not hold office for the duration of the term. Members of the Politurbo who supported (not necessairly lead) the coup attempt will be forced from that council for the remainder of the term.

[Nubclear]

How about we create an Orwellian-style database of all our citizens? Criminal records, etc etc....Some of which is public, some which may not be...

So then those who support a counter-revolutionary coup will be shamed forever.

[Vander]

I think it would be keen to have some sort of Mechanism that can cover things such as military combat, economic power and so on. Something like dice rolls or RNG.

[Nubclear]

Dice rolls are probably best. best stick with a 50 base, and add or subtract values as needed. Of course, with a 1d100.

Anyway, I was thinking something like this:

NAME: Tassadar
AGE: 26
SEX: Male
WEIGHT: 125lbs
HEIGTH: 6'4

RESIDENCE: New Apolyton
CURRENT LOCATION: Tassagrad
POSITION: General Secretary
PREVIOUS POSITIONS: God
EDUCATION LEVEL: Talent, New Apolyton School of Science
Worker, Revolutionary School of Military Tactics
SPECIALIZATION: Scientist

MARITAL STATUS: Dating
(Classified) SIGNIFICANT FE/MALE: Claire Forlani < Link to Profile >

REVOLUTIONARY INVOLVEMENT: 2191 - Overthrew Government of Exampleperson
2185 - Sucessfully Defended against Politburo Attempt to Overthrow General Secretary
COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY INVOLVMENT: 2184 - Attempted to Overthrow Politburo
POLITICAL AFFILIATION: Communist Party of the Human Hive.
(Classified) TRUE POLITICAL AFFILIATION: Far-Left Wing
(Classified) THREAT LEVEL AGAINST CURRENT GOVERNMENT: 0

A lot more could be added to this list. Maybe even RPG elements. Who knows?

[Micha]

Hm, looks like a STASI file...

That reminds me... I have to look at my STASI file as long as they are still public I´d love to see what they knew about me...

[Maniac]

I was thinking before of creating some system where each official gets points for achievements he or she makes during his or her term. For example the S of Science and SE would get some points for each tech researched, the S of Fac Defense for each military unit built and battle won. On the other sides points could be lost by losing a battle or having a drone riot. The points would then go to the opposition.
These points could be used then to start a coup. Points could be appointed to a certain office. Who has the most points left in a certain office at the end of the coup becomes the new official.

Two major drawbacks:
1. It would be an administrative hell, keeping an account of what unit was built where under what official etc...
2. Officials will probably no longer be elected. Coups will decide everything. That could be better for Hive RP sphere, but some people may not like that. It's a choice that has to be made.

[Nubclear]

1. Well, not really. I mean were probably not going to be a huge DG, so...
2. The Hiverian solution to everything: POLL IT!!!

[GeneralTacticus]

It would be nice if we could have some agreement on the mechanism for coups before it actually became an issue...

[Octavian X]

Here's a simplified proposal:

A person, the leader of the coup, would start a thread for the coup, calling for support, and specifically mentioning those leaders targetted by the coup attempt. For reasons of fairness, the General Secretary would be forbidden from touching that thread with his mod powers.

People start to throw their support for either the revolutionaries or the leaders under fire. This would all be done publically, so all would know how they voted.

the Weighting system, for reasons of simplicity, would be as follows:
General Secretary: +4 votes
Chairman, members of the Politurbo: +3 votes
Secretaries: +2 votes
Secretaries of the Republics: +1 vote

After a five day period, the votes would all be tallied. Simple Majority, with all ties being thrown in favor the the targetted leader(s).

If the attempt is sucessful, the targetted leader(s) is removed from office immeadiately. The leader of the coup (thread starter) picks a new person to fill the post (self-appointment allowed).

If the attempt fails, the leader of the coup (thread starter) is removed from all positions he may hold, and is forbidden from holding any type of position for the rest of the term, as well as the following ones.

Thoughts?

[GeneralTacticus]

I think forbidding the leaders of failed coup attempts from holding positions permanently is a bit harsh. Allow the General Secretary (or a majority of Politburo members, perhaps) to place a ban on their holding positions if they want to, but also allow for the ban to be lifted if the General Secretary or Politburo changes it's mind or is replaced.

[Hercules]

Re the point scheme: It would be too easy to build up points during the early years when for example discovering tech is relatively fast.

I think a version of Octavians proposal is better.

Non office holders 1 vote
Secretaries of republics 2 votes
Secretaries 3 votes
Members of Politburo 3 votes
Chairman 4 votes
General Secretary 4 votes

This narrows the range among office holders and it should be one person one declaration. That is a secretary who is also a secretary of a republic does not get 5 votes just 3.

Also I don't think you should be able to split your vote 2 for 1 candidate and 1 for another for example if you are entitled to 3 votes.

[Drogue]

I agree with Herc, although I think people with multiple positions should be allowed to vote with the full compliment of votes. If someone has 2 positions, they have exactly the same power as 2 people holding those 2 positions, and control the same number of employees and workers as 2 people holding those positions, so to be only given the votes for one of them seems wrong to me.

I agree with Octavian that those who fail in a coup should have their positions stripped until the next elections. However, this makes it very easy, too easy indeed, to dipose a leader, therefore I think you should get 2 extra points if you hold the positions being contended. I think the votes should eb as follows too:
Citizens - 1
Secretaries of Republics - 2
Secretaries - 3
Politburo Members - 3
Chairman - 4
General Secretary - 5

With 2 extra points for the person that holds the position being contended (they will have extra influence over that department, being that they legitimately control the defenses and employees of that department) and if you hold 2 positions, you get the votes for both (since you control the defenses and employees of both of those departments, and you have the same influence as 2 people who hold those 2 positions). Split votes are not allowed.

How does that sound?