Succession Game, Anyone?

[Zakharov VII]

The Democracy game's pretty slow (actually...very slow, but fun ), so I was wondering if anyone was interested in a succession game...

I'm not sure exactly what happened to me after that Zaky game (Transcendence in 2400...whew!), but now I'm ready to go again at this.

Anyone else interested? Faction/challenge (if any) up for discussion.

EDIT: Only thing not for discussion...is it's gotta be SMAC. I don't have Alien Crossfire, as much as I'd like it .

Z

[Fromage]

I propably could take Hive.

"Democracy game's" and "succession game". Could you tell me what those mean?

[johndmuller]

I've been itching to play a succession game where we can only build probes (including whatever additional stuff one cares to put on them). Other units can only be acquired "diplomatically" (except perhaps for a nominal number of formers, to add some extra interest, as in each succession participant can design/alter/rebuild one "personalized" forrmer as they wish; perhaps a minimal number of Colony pods could be built as well, but definitely no military, crawlers or upgrades of subverted units). Miriam has a bit of a probe advantage, but I imagine that any faction could do it given an inoffensive enough foreign policy and accomplished fifth columnists.

[Zakharov VII]

OK...In a democracy game, a whole bunch of people discuss/argue/debate on how to play the game, electing every month the Comissioner who will actually play and Directors who will advise (Director of Research, Terraforming & Colonization, etc). The Directors, once elected, poll "the people" - all democracy game participants - in order to make decisions. The focus is in the roleplaying, because the pace is terribly slow. We haven't begun the actual Alpha Centauri game yet (starting September 1st if our first Comissioner Crisler keeps his promise ), but once started, we'll have lots to discuss. Wait, we already have lots to discuss ! Anyways, it's a lot of fun, and you can participate as little or as much as you want. If you're interested, you can look at the AC Democracy Game forum.

Then...a succession game is a cooperative game, where we all work together as the same faction. One person starts the game, plays 20-30 years or so (to be agreed before beginning the game), then sends the save to the next person. Usually this process entails a lengthy post in the thread for the game about what's happened during the person's reign. It's not necessary, however, to post too much, though some (like me) njoy writting up the reports. So the file's handed off from person to person until everyone's had a turn, then it goes back to the starter. At some point, turns become signifigantly longer, and so eventually each person only plays about 10-20 turns at a time (the exact number agreed upon. At least in the one game I played in (that lasted 2400+, I believe), it's fun to be playing with an empire that, while you help to create it, is rather different from normal.

EDIT: Hey there jdm, here I was thinking it was bad being up past midnight . If it's OK with whatever other people we can draw, nothing-but-probes is fine with me (even more difficult than our NCC?). Any faction choice is fine, though it would seem most military advantages are fairly useless...that's either a good or a bad thing, depending just how hard we want to make this . Lal seems like a powerful choice here, since we'd probably have less, bigger bases than usual, with Former/Colony Pod restrictions. Pop booming/fairly easy +2 Economy don't hurt, especially since the only other faction like that has some serious probe problems .

Z

[Blake]

I'm in for this sucession game.
The personalised formers thing sounds cool.

As for colony pods, how about something like each player can found only one new base or somesuch? (the first player would be allowed to found the two starting bases).

I quite like probe teams so it could be interesting. Might be best to play on a 30-50% land map to ensure we have some neighbours. I personally like 30-50, high erosion, high rainfall (the AI likes it too). We might want to go easy on the worms, lest our personalised formers become the only thing stopping our colonists being carried away by the worms.

PK good choice of faction

[Zakharov VII]

Good, good...so in total (including me), we have 3 so far, 4 if Fromage is still interested...

I'll do just about whatever settings you want, and the 30-50% land sounds fun (unless we get stuck on an island ...).

So, then, if we're on Transcend we start with 2 Colony Pods, then each after the first builds 1? So 4 Bases, 5 if we get another person? Then 3 formers (one each, replacable I assume?) total? This'll be interesting .

Bases should have lots of time on their hands early on, with no colony pod production for 20 years or so...

So...we want Centauri Ecology, then Info/PlanNets? I doubt we'll be able to get Secrets first...

From there it seems to me a Democracy/Free Market is good...

Z

[Fromage]

Hmm, that sounds like... strange

Anyway, I could try this. It might be fun.

[johndmuller]

Faction Selection

Staying alive is a reasonable goal in the beginning - our initial scout is going to be our only military unit for quite a while. The free morale boosts and the starting rover are good points for Santi.

We probably need to get Social Psych (Miriam's starting tech) reasonably early as we are not going to be able to keep building new bases and we will have to deal with drones before we have enough nuts to have specialists. That and the probe bonus are her plusses (aside from her winning personality).

Zak's starting tech (Info Nets) might be a good enough reason to choose him too - between that and his free tech, we might be able to get both Centauri Ecology and Planetary Nets with just one research cycle; that almost seems too easy.

Of course with Dee we get Centauri Ecology as our starting tech and the ability to capture MWs (assuming we get some before we lose our scout), which gives us an army independent of the dangerous game of probing them from our no doubt tougher-than-us neighbors.

Yangs prodigious production can really go to town making probes and without much else to build, he could build a lot of facilities pretty quickly too. Of course, the free perimeter defenses might help those (hopefully armored) probe garrisons defend a little better.

The way we will be playing (without much in the way of garrisons/police at least in the beginning) we almost might as well be Morgan and get his economic advantages as long as we are going to have many of his disadvantages. Money is pretty important in probe warfare.

I don't know what Lal has going for him here, although it always seems to me that he has an easier time being friends with the AI than most of the others. That could be totally wrong, it's just my subjective recollections. Otherwise, Biogenetics is nice, but of no direct help in the immediate short run except to boost the energy income a little.

On the negatives, Miriam's 10 year ban from research really slows her down in the early research dept. as does Yangs energy deficiency (unless there are a lot of monoliths and rivers nearby).

Needless to say, we have to make sure that someone else doesn't get the Hunter-Seeker.

As to actually making the selection, that depends on whether or not we want to make it difficult on purpose.

[Zakharov VII]

Fromage - glad you've decided to give it a try .

Looking back, what I said about the University is entiredly irrelevent. Ironicly, playing a game of all probes makes their -2 Probe negligable! It only increases enemy probe team success and makes it cheaper, but really, what is there for them to subvert? Definately not our probe teams, and we'll have plenty of probe team defenders at bases...only Formers and our subverted units, then, but that's only till HSA anyways (which we MUST get!!).

With the Spartans, the Rover is nice but the starting tech is worthless (except as a prerequisite for foil probes...). Police might actually be handy, since we can subvert some junky units for this purpose (not too many needed with so few bases...at least until we subvert some). Morale seems only useful early to keep our scout from dying...on the other hand, the Industry penalty isn't so bad with fewer, bigger bases...

Miriam also has one more indirect bonus - no one else is Miriam! Which means no one else is immune to probes, at least until Thought Control or in the disaster of missing HSA. Still...what are we going to do as we research so slowly? No Colony Pods for the first set, since the first person only gets the second starting pod, right? And only one Former (which we won't be able to build for fiftyzillion years). So what, we build Recreation Commons, lose money on upkeep from them, then probably have a few good turns of Stockpiling before we can build that Former (if it even comes within the first player's "term" ). Then it's a long wait for Network Nodes, then FINALLY Probes and we can get moving. If someone hasn't Ascended yet ...

With Zaky, it's tempting (almost) to take PlanNets before Ecology...just one Former shorter and we can immediately start Probe production (not that we'd have any money to make use of them, but more scouts...and eventual upgrades to Synthmetal Probe Teams?)...after all, if we get Ecology, we build the one Former and then have nothing to do until PlanNets rolls around . Maybe viable if we start near some Rainy/Rolling.

Deirdre....according to the way you stated the rules, it actually seems like we wouldn't be allowed captured Mindworms . But I guess that could be argued as "diplomatic," just dealing with Planet's terms rather than human interaction. The extra Worms would be extremely helpful, we just have to get lucky or be careful with our one "freebie" worm. I do like Free Market, though.

Yang, prodigious, schmodigious. Maybe I just don't like him (he's ALWAYS on my nearest border, looking to pick a fight), but with so little to build (fewer units, bigger bases should have no problem building facilities/SPs), it doesn't seem to help much. And that +1 Growth is laughable considering the un-pop-booming-ness.

The only problem with Morgan is base size....until we get Automation, we'll have 4-5 size 4 bases ...then our population will cap out at 5 size 11's (until we can subvert some bases/colony pods), if we can get it that high fast enough without population booming.

And Lal. I really do like playing PK, but the extra people in base and extra talents seem really helpful. Double votes gives us a good chance for Governer, since it doesn't seem like even with subverting bases that we'll ever be too populated.

Let's just choose something and get started. The only ones I think would be killer (as in, killing us off ) are Miriam (terribly slow start) and Yang (tough Economy - crippling to get +2 Economy with FM, Wealth, and a GA...and no pop booming). Tough but possible seem Santy (early Morale/Exploration bonus, though we'll be busy Stockpiling), Deirdre (no help except from Mindworms, no FM), and Morgan (small bases, no pop booming), and easiest (but shouldn't be easy with this challenge) seem University and Peacekeeper.

If for some reason I'm not around and you need to get started, you bunch can decide the faction without me and start the game. My e-mail address is zakharov@care2.com if you need to send a file...

Z

[Blake]

Morgans actually a good choice IMO because probe actions require money and morgan is good at making money, and the support penalty wouldn't matter one bit. The smaller size would be a bit of a bother, altough not too much. And the 100 starting credits will be invaluable seeing as we cant rely on cheap police for drone control.

In this game we will have no shortage of things to spend money on, rec commons for growth, mind controlling, unit upgrades etc.

So Morgan is an excellent choice.
Lal is also a good choice, being able to get size 2 bases without rec commons in place (assuming we play on trascend, please be transcend)
Well, university is always good .

Most ideological IMO is morgan, not wanting to spend any money on a military and instead using covert ops.

So my preference would be Morgan, but I'll happily play any faction, even the believers .

I'd say it's almost a given that we will be running Free Market most of the time, there is just no reason not to, we cant attack native life or use police and probes outside of territory dont cause drones, so IndEcon is a good target, with morgan starting just one tech from it (maybe research IndEcon first and switch to FM for uber income and research... the lack of formers wouldn't matter with base squares pumping out something like 6 energy)

Oh well, just my ramblings on the matter. Take them or leave them....

[Zakharov VII]

That sounds good, you've convinced me (and yes, I think we're doing Transcend). Let's be Morgan, unless others terribly disagree.

So, since we can't begin now, I want to get a few things straight...

GAME TYPE

Standard (or bigger? smaller?) Map, 30-50% land, High Erosion, High Rainfall, Rare Native Life.

All victory conditions on, Cooperative on?, Do or Die on, I guess?, Look First on?, no blind/tech stag/extra-agressive (imagine that ), no bell curve...did I miss anything important?

We are the Morganites (better name?) on Transcend difficulty

CHALLENGE

Only Probes can be built (designed in any way, with any chassis/armor/reactor/abilities), with the exception of one Former per player, to be upgraded (and replaced?) whenever desired. Sea Formers are counted in this figure (?). Also, each player not counting the first may build 1 Colony Pod. The first may only use the 2 starting pods. The starting Scout and all popped/subverted units may be kept, but never upgraded. All subverted Formers may be used, but once again not upgraded. Colony pods, if subverted, can be used to found new bases (?), and any mind controlled bases may be kept. Crawlers, if subverted, may be rehomed and used (?)...and cashed in on SPs, but would we be that crazy??...but it's not likely we'll get many, if any.

There aren't many exploits to discuss...retro engineering is a no (just my guess??), though it seems only useful to make Rover Formers early on.

And one IMPORTANT note to discuss...it has been mentioned somewhere that if you put a heavily armored Probe Team next to an enemy base, the enemy will spend ALL the units in the base trying to kill that Probe Team. A good old Fusion Silksteel Probe Team could clear out a base full of 1-4-1s. Obviously an exploit we should avoid, as it would defeat much of the challenge. Sometimes it may be unavoidable to place an armored probe team next to a base (for mind controlling next turn), but I think we should attempt to avoid a situation like this (for example, by leaving the Probe Team one space away).

EARLY STRATEGY IDEAS

Assuming Morgan, we choose Industrial Economics as the first tech, spending as long as we want choosing base sites (or maybe founding one base quickly near some good minerals/monolith, for an immediate start on ME!). Bases should be kept at size 1, since size 2 brings a drone only fixable by our Independant Scout who should be busy, well, scouting...or if we're serious about that early SP (change it to HGP, most likely...seems like we'd need it), maybe we'll wait on scouting till Probes come along? If there are Rainy squares/a monolith, it's OK because the new citizen can become a Doctor. We probably want one base like this so the next player can build a Colony Pod there immediately. At IE we change to FM and start Energy Banks, I guess, then get Centauri Ecology (? That reminds me, what if we get CE after the first "term" is up?). I say we forget the WP, since with so few Formers and minimal nuts needed early (low base size and difficult drone handling) a good old forest may serve us well (not very Morgan-like). From there we have difficult decisions...Psyche for the desparately needed Drone help, or InfoNets to move us towards Probes and give us something to work on in the meantime?

Z

[johndmuller]

I'm willing to go with Morgan, much as I like the idea of Miriam. Getting rid of Miriam herself, if it comes to that will be a little tricky, but I suppose we can find a pactmate (we better find one if we expect to get anywhere) who isn't afraid of her and we don't necessarily need to kill her off anyway.

To make it easier to remember which is your personally designed former, we could each design a separate one in the design workshop and name it after ourselves or in some other distinctive fashion. The same for the bases, name one after yourself or your favorite entrepreneur near-namesake (like JohnDRockefeller in my case) or idol, in case we want to give one away or depopulate it to start a new base somewhere else (we could leave Morgan Industries alone and let player #1 be responsible for any future dealings with base #2). I don't know that we'd really want to do that, but I thought we might want a sea base (in a good spot - not the kind of location the AI picks), for whatever reason. I don't want to get too carried away with this base ownership thing though - it might actually be better for whomever is CEO to either build or not build our additional bases whenever they think the time is right, even if we don't each get to build one and to discuss any base deconstruction rather than try to do it to a specific base during your own turn window (I would be prone to vote for this CEO discretion on build / consultation on dispose rather than the individual control thing for bases; I think we can afford the luxury for the personal formers however.

I'd like to suggest the following turn structure:
-First round of turns - 20 yrs for 1st 2 players, 15 yrs for remaining players;
-Second round of turns - 10 or 15 years at player's option;
-Third and subsequent rounds - 10 years or less.
At some point even 5 years will take a good while to play, so we may wish to reduce it to 5 or less when it gets complicated. I think that the downside to succession games is the hurry up and wait syndrome, where there seems to be pressure to play the turn quickly (since everyone is waiting for you) even if it arrives at an inconvenient time RL-wise.

I'm not sure we figured out the tech path we want to follow, but we can just leave it to the CEOs to deal with.

How about if Zak VII just arbitrarily decrees the turn order, since he seems to have been the original instigator (I'm willing to decree it if he doesn't want to).

My email address, BTW, is John's email address or as a backup, John's alternate email address.

[Zakharov VII]

Come up with the turn order?? Me?? Why don't you go ahead and figure that out, jdm (or do you prefer John?). It would degenerate into some random coin/dice tossing if I did it...

Maybe you can start the game yourself (I'd prefer not to ) since you'd be around when the turn order is determined (obviously).

I guess I'll go ahead and do it tonight (when I have more time) if jdm hasn't gotten around yet.

EDIT: The turnschedule looks good

Z

[johndmuller]

OK, I'm starting the game - I'm also taking the first turn. Assuming I finish the turn shortly, the turn order will be:
CEO JD "Diamond" Muller
CEO Zak VII
CEO Blake
CEO Fromage
CEO WhoeverElseSignsUpInTime
If for some reason it takes me 6 or 7 hours to finish the turn, I'll probably send it to Blake instead as he will be awake then. If anyone has a better turn order, feel free to suggest it. I will be posting the turn in a new thread here as well as sending it to the next CEO. I have this for Blake's email address, but it may be out of date; Blake, please post of send me you current address. Ditto Fromage. Others: Still time to sign up.

[Blake]

That e-mail address is fine, and I'm awake