Maps

[Anodyne]

So, on what kind of maps do you like playing? The Planet map from the game, or randomly generated map? Also what sizes? I like them BIG. If not the 128x128, 192x192 or perhaps even 256x256 (although that makes the games quite too long...)

I, myself, have been creating maps based on Earth, using the MapUtility tool downloaded from here, at Apolyton, and topographic earth maps found at http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/topo/globegal.shtml . The only problem is that the earth maps over there use that crappy projection that enlargens the polar areas, which doesn't add to the realism when Scandinavia equals half the size of Europe in gameplay...

So, if you like playing on Earth-based maps, do you have any special place to download the maps from? Or have you created your own maps? Also, if you have links to some sites with topographic maps that use alternative projections, please post them here. And feel free to discuss about maps in general, too!

[Googlie]

Ade:

Lots of maps (including a decent Earth map) over at CGN (Civilization Gaming Network)

Visit their Alpha Centauri Academy maproom at:

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/maps.shtml

G.

[Maniac]

And may I also in all modesty recommend my Earth map exclusivally found at the Chironian Guild.

http://smac.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/

[Apocalypse]

I played on a 1250x1250 map before as the Morganites. It got too easy. With all that breathing room at the beginning, was I able to get around the only weak point in the Morganite faction.

[Anodyne]

I played on Googlie's map for a while yesterday. It wasn't too bad. Some mistakes, only; Central asia was FAR too little. Alaska and Kamchatka-area might have been smaller to give more space to Asia. Also, the European side of Russia was too small. And I want Finland included!!

Hmm... I would like to create a 256x256 Earth-map, but the MapUtility tool won't create that big and I'm too lazy (and incompetent) to doodle it out myself.

M@ni@c -> Sorry, I didn't even download your map. 87x89 is too small for me!

[Maniac]

It's the quality that counts.

[BustaMike]

1250X1250 !!!!!!!!!!
WTF! 1562500 tiles. Something would break.
Besides isn't the largest size possible 255x255 (or 256x256 maybe?).

[Googlie]

Yes - although you can enter an almost infinite size, the max you ever get is 256 x 512 ( which actually corresponds to a 256 square map, as the vertical count goes diagonally. But if you enter 256 x 256 you actually get 256 horizontal and 128 vertical, a sort of Ringworld.

'Twas MoSe at ACOL that pointed this out to me many moons ago when I was boasting of my million tile waterworld games

256 squared is still pretty humungous

G.

[gwillybj]

I make maps 256w x 208h.
Long boring mathematical reasoning in Map Sizes? in "General".
Some other threads at Apolyton re mapmaking:
Sinking land when making maps in "Creation".
Special Geographical Bonuses in "General".
Map Size Pro's and Con's in "General".

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by BustaMike
1250X1250 !!!!!!!!!!
WTF! 1562500 tiles. Something would break.
Besides isn't the largest size possible 255x255 (or 256x256 maybe?).

It went really slow. There is no actual limit though.

[Apocalypse]

My good friend Brian Reynolds talks about map sizes:

Map size is fully customizable. We haven't put any upper limits, but the geometric effect takes over rapidly above 256x256 or so--including path-finding AI, terrain, masks, and so forth, the game needs upwards of 50 bytes or so per map location, so for a 1000x1000, you're talking about astounding amounts of memory, not to mention the geometrically increased time to process AI and other algorithms. So basically we've allowed the upper limits to be determined by technology!

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games

* Made "custom map size" much easier to do; maximum map size limited only by your computer's sanity (& AI's ability to comprehend it all). A 256x256 map ran fine for me (65000+ squares, compared to 3200 in a standard map and ~9000 in a "huge" map). 1000x1000 (1,000,000 squares) took the AI so long to find paths it was pretty hard to play.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Apocalypse

It went really slow. There is no actual limit though.

Guys - you're kidding yourselves

Regardless of what reynolds might have said in the beginning, or the number you enter, the max size is 512 x 256 (actually 511 x 255)

Enter 999 x 999 (or whatever you want - 1 million by 1 million if you like) in the custom map size, and start a game. Select "map grid on ocean squares" Move your cursor to the top left corner of the map, and find reference 0:0. Now move 1 diagonal tile left - the reference is now 511:1. Now scroll down to the bottom of the screen. The map reference is now 511:255.

Try it. Any x:y value greater than 512:256 produces the same result (and I'm not limited by PC power - it's was the same on my old 200MMX as it is on my current P4 1.8 with 512 MB RAM

G.

[Clear Skies]

Must be something to do with the algorithms - 512 and 256 are common multiple cutoff points...

Anyway, I tend to play on the maps of planet for authenticity, DilithiumDad's Ultimate Builder Map for a challenge, or a totally random map for aggravation (dammit why do they always start yang so far away from me...)

[Apocalypse]

Maybe one of the later patches put a cap on. It is/was possible to do this though.

Back in the day I ran a site called the Alpha Centauri Nexus, which was part of Sidgames. In January of '99 Apolyton and Sidgames were in heavy competition. In early January I ran into a slow newsday. Only 3 bits of news. I decided to go bash Call to Power for awhile. Anyway, the unlimited map sizes of that game came up. I never read anything about SMAC have limited map sizes so edited some things in the demo and put a map size of 1000 * 1000. It took me three attempts to get this work because it was a large strain on my system. Once it was evident that there were actually 1,000,000 squares, I posted this as news. I entitled it "One less thing CTP has over SMAC (not that CTP really has anything good anyway)" or something to that affect. That post got Peter from Activision upset so I ended up having to change the title. Anyway, the news post led to the first quote from Brian Reynolds I posted earlier.

[MariOne]

Apocalypse, the "later patch" you refer to must then be... the game first release itself.
Jan '99 is indeed prior to game release in Europe.
I got the game on Feb 23rd 99. The v2 patch came shortly after.
I remember discussing this in spring 99 at owo, and we soon found out that the limit was 256x256, regardless the big figures you entered.
At latest, it could be the very first patch, I can't be conclusive on that, but I think we tested it also for the original game.
Thus what you say must only allegedly apply to the demo...
Googlie is right.

Goglie, remember that when you read an X coordinate of 511, you have entered a 256: horizontal coordinates are doubled, because each column is split in two and "zigzag" staggered (you have 0,0 - 1,1 - 0,2 - 1,3 but not 0,1 or 1,2: the sum of cells in the TWO columns 0,* and 1,* is thus 256 like if it were a single "normal" column, not 512).
___
EDIT to make it maybe clearer, Googlie:
if you enter 512x256 when asked for the custom size, you get the SAME map as when you enter 256x256