Pros and Cons of SP / PBEM / MP(via LAN or Net)

[johndmuller]

Most likely, everyone knows what they like and dislike about the various modes of play, but perhaps there are pleasant surprises about one mode or another that you have never even considered and perhaps we can walk the line between advocacy and flame wars on this touchy subject.

Just to get them out of the way, some of the major aspects:
- Human players are much more challenging than AI players
- PBEM games take a very long time to play (months+).

I don't know much about non-PBEM MP; with only a little difficulty, I got it to work between several computers at home, but was unable to keep the interest of the potential other player(s), so it wasn't that rewarding getting up and walking across the room in between turns. Perhaps if I set up two or three computers right next to each other . . .

Regarding PBEM, I noticed that my focus was much better - given that I was going to be waiting a day until it was my tuirn again, the least I could do would be to analyze my moves a little bit while it was my turn. As a result, I think that the quality of my play has improved substantially. I've gotten more organized too, keeping a data file on what I think I'm doing and planning to do so that I don't have to reinvent the wheel each turn.

After I started playing PBEM, I have played SP a lot less, and generally with the testing or trying out of some particular faction or strategy being mainly in mind; I don't play them out to the end either.

I've played a few succession games too (where multiple players share an SP game by passing it on every 5-10 turns or so). They are kind of fun in that people usually share their game experiences with each other as the game develops. On the other hand, it is a tough trade off between having the turns be too short to see the fruits of your plans and being so long that you only get 2 or 3 turns before the game is over. Also, when the game gets complicated, the time it takes to reacquaint yourself with the game and then play even 5 years worth becomes considerable and can stress your schedule.

So what do you all feel about the different ways to play?

[Fitz]

johnd, long time no chat. =)

Um, right, to the point ...

I personally dropped out of 3 PBEMs after only 50 turns or so. I couldn't garuntee that I would be able to play every day, and in fact found that there were frequently stretches of 1-2 weeks where I'm so busy that I don't even turn on my home PC. Interestingly enough, I had never noticed this before.

SP play used to be my premier method of play. After a 2 week hiatus from games, if I find myself with a Sunday with nothing planned, I can spend all day in front of the PC. The other nice thing is that the tech rate is resonable (since Humans tend to trade techs like mad, or at least the ones I LAN with do). Unfortunately, the lack of AI inventiveness makes for sloppy play and bad habits, and even then you are probably dominating them.

I have, with a few local close friends, played Succession games (SP games passed around). They don't mind if I take a week to pass it back, so it works out. I've typically only done 2 player versions, and we usually allow for large chunks of turns to allow a chance to point the empire in a whole new direction. Typically 10 turns each for the first 60, then 20-25 turns each after that. That way you get to start using what you built, not just what they had finished in their 5-10 turns.

LAN MP play is by far my most favorite. I atually use Hotseat more than any other (basically the PBEM setting), because three of use each have PCs at home, so we have three different games going and can play whichever one is located in the place we are currently bumming. This especially well when we are all on a studying binge (2 in college and network classes for me) because you play for 5-10 minutes (taking lots of time to examine your plans and potential options) then have 10-20 minutes to study. Works extrememly well for our favored of studying.

I do like playing simultaneous play, but I hate waiting for the others to catch up with me, even with time limits (I'm the fastest player.

[RedFred]

I am a slow player who likes to check out everything I can before completing a turn. So internet play, even with simultaneous moves is not the best for me.

Hotseat is a lot of fun, especially with two players as a cooperative game. If you set it up so that the other five factions are particularly challenging, this increases the fun.

Straight SP is not as fun for me anymore unless it is a 'challenge' style game or at least a scenario that many other players are simultaneously playing.

PBEM is a lot of fun, even though you are at the mercy of the other players to keep the game going. Games that go quickly are the most fun. I am involved in a seven player game that I only see once every two or three weeks now; that length of time and it is hard for me to even remember my plans from turn to turn. Heck, that game has been going on for so long that I can see evidence how I played back when I was new to PBEM. (shudder)

[gwillybj]

SP for me

MP SMAC is not a viable option in my case. I truthfully feel no need, and I would not be reliable.
I am a wargamer from the days of tabletop games from Avalon Hill and Victory Games, and I always played them solo (by combination of choice and circumstance), so playing SMAC (or any PC game) solo feels as natural as (insert favorite biological function)
I still play the tabletop games, too.
In SMAC, solo play is more enjoyable, though, because of the extent to which the game can be edited: new factions; more techs; alter pretty much everything in alpha.txt...
I spend as many hours playing with the game as playing in the game.
If there is any interest, I would gladly share my many alterations. Many I have already posted here in the Creation section.

[Sikander]

I haven't played much MP, just 100 turns or so, but I find it difficult to both stay focused myself and to keep up with my opponent's schedule. It's too bad the game isn't designed for simultaneous turn resolution, it would make even 7 player games go as quickly as 2 player games.

gwillybj,

Do you have Victory Games 'Vietnam'? My roomate in college had that game and it was fascinating to me. I started a game solo and had it stretched out on the floor for about two weeks. I'd like to have a copy of this game someday.

[gwillybj]

by Sikander
gwillybj,
Do you have Victory Games 'Vietnam'? My roomate in college had that game and it was fascinating to me. I started a game solo and had it stretched out on the floor for about two weeks. I'd like to have a copy of this game someday.

I don't have 'Vietnam'. My favorite is the 'Ambush!' series (a solo WWII game). I own (and play) several others. In "my room" I have a huge table (36x60 farmhouse-style) specifically for those games. I, too, have had them go many days .
Peek at eBay for 'Vietnam' - I see AH and VG titles there all the time, most always in exellent condition, and the prices aren't excessive .

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Sikander
It's too bad the game isn't designed for simultaneous turn resolution, it would make even 7 player games go as quickly as 2 player games.

It is set up for simultaneous turn resolution. From personal experience, I can say that 5 player usally goes a little bit slower than 2 player, but not a whole lot. Add 1-2 minutes max per turn, and you are adding about an hour or two per 100 turns. It's enough that you can't plan to play a game in a day, or even usually a weekend, but as long as you schedule your next "wasted" weekend within a resonable time period (say a month) you can usually remember what you were up to. Regardless, even two player games take at least two days.

It helps keep things fast if you play tight time controls instead of loose, but that usually means I win, since I typically keep large number of bases but very small number of units, so I don't waste time moving units all over the place.

[Jac de Molay]

I am relegated to SP cuz I cant figure out how to MP with my buddy through MSn messenger. If theres a related thread giving a comprehensive overview of setting up IP games, I would appreciate it.

DAve

[MariOne]

Originally posted by Fitz
It is set up for simultaneous turn resolution. From ...

Fitz, I think Sikander was talking of PBEM while you're talking of IP games.

PBEM simultaneous turn resolution means that all players send their move for the year indepedently. Indeed, a turn is played by all players simultaneoulsy, there is NO player sequence.
You need a neutral turn generator, or evaluation engine, to crunch all the moves submitted by each player, and resolve the conflicts for simultaneous access to the same space.
Stars! and Diplomacy are games like that.

The downside is that you can't, within YOUR turn, decide some of your moves *depending* on the outcome of others. E.g., I attack with one unit - unexpectedly it fails - well, then I change my pan a bit, and divert another one to get rid of the tough but damaged surviving enemy.
In simultaneous pbem, a player does not move: he gives orders. All his orders will be evaluated simultaneously, that is all your units will be moving simultaneously in one turn, and also with other players' units. You'll make your adjustments when you'll see the outcome receiving your next turn, but you can't adjust *within* one of your turns.

[MariOne]

Originally posted by DetroitDave
I am relegated to SP cuz I cant figure out how to MP with my buddy through MSn messenger. If theres a related thread giving a comprehensive overview of setting up IP games, I would appreciate it.

DAve

I only played half an IP game in 2-3 sessions 3 years ago (with Mongoose and a portuguese, IIRC).

Chat tools like MSN messengers are only used to setup the rendez-vous.

From my recollection, the main thing is that you know your PC's IP address. Usually it is assigned dynamically to your PC by your ISP, so it can be different everytime you connect. (I don't know whether newer technologies allow *normal* users to have a static IP address at their homes...).
So you should check for it. The command (at the dos-prompt) is winipcfg for Win95/98, ipconfig for NT/2000.
One player starts the IP game as the host, and other players can join in the game he started, by indicating the host's IP (which he must thus have communicated you somehow beforehand, i.e. via MSN messenger).

Once you joined in a game, I think to recall that internal SMAC interface guided you pretty much. There is also a chat box where you talk waiting for all the invited players to be ready to start.

Sorry, I haven't more detailed memories about that.

IP games can be nice, but they are not my turf, because with sequential turns they indeed take up too much of your time *conscutively*, and with simultaneous moves the game becomes much more like an RTS!!! If there's a contended empty base to take, it's the *fastest* to move to take it!
(I remember indeed that Mongoose was pissed off with me in that game because I let him wipe enemy garrisons, then I *timely* sneaked in with my humble recon rover taking the base... )

[Jac de Molay]

Thanks for the info. I tried hosting an IP game with my friend, but it still wasnt making a connection. Im more inclined to think it's something with his new computer (perhaps OS incompatibility with his XP and my '98) because we havent' been able to play civ 2 either like we did previously. I also need to know how to get IP address for XP os and have him try hosting a game.

Im not the most computer-savvy guy in the world, but this shouldn't be such a pain in the a$$

Dave

[johndmuller]

The commands to get the ip info are:

• Win 95, 98, SE, ME - Command = winipcfg
• Win NT, 2K, XP - Command = ipconfig

These commands have various options for additional info or for resetting/reacquiring addresses for example ipconfig /all gives a lot of info - or ipconfig /? for all the options. These commands are issued from a Dos comamnd shell accessible from the Start/Run sequence (in addition to a variety of other approaches).

It sounds to me that you have some sort of firewall problem - either some software running on one machine or the other, or else something built into a cable/dsl modem. Perhaps connecting from the other direction might work or perhaps you can disable the firewall or try a dial up connection if one of you was using a high speed link. There may also be some way to set the ports used in your connection to make it work with the firewall, but I wouldn't be the one to ask about that.

If possible, you might try setting up a game over a LAN at one location so that you can assure yourself that you know how to set up one that works in case there is some basic thing that you are doing incorrectly.

[Fitz]

DD, you almost certainly have a firewall problem. According to the EA Helpdesk, whom I emailed back and forth with repeatedly, you should be fine if you use the generic DirectX settings for TCP/UDP. Unfortunately, I was never able to get my crappy router to let it work. I will look up the settings again when I get home and report them here. Of course, considering I was trying to get SMAC 4.0 to connect to SMAX 2.0 in classic mode, it could be my own sheer stupidity that was behind the failure.

Edit: K, found an old email from a friend:

>Found something interesting:
>http://www.angelfire.com/games3/Alph...er/Router.html
>
> Implies that SMAC uses DirectX for the multiplayer connectivity. We
> should try these settings at your end:
>
> Initial TCP Connection: 47624 Outbound 47624 Inbound
> Subsequent TCP Inbound : 2300-2400
> Subsequent TCP Outbound: 2300-2400
> Subsequent UDP Inbound : 2300-2400
> Subsequent UDP Outbound: 2300-2400

Anyhow, you also need to be aware that if you use a router, you need to find out the routers IP address and not your computers. Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive message on how to do that.

If you are interested in trying to figure it out with me, you can email me. If we can actually play with the settings (I am PST, usually available weeknights between 6-10) we can even try connecting ourselves. Otherwise, email me at lepinfiltrator@hotmail.com (or better yet PMail me here at Poly) and make sure to include your PC OS, router type if any, and version of SMAC/SMAX. I'll check that relatively unused email address for the next couple of days and look in back here.

[DrSpike]

If you use a router it will have two IP addresses, one internal and one external. The external one is what you need, and may be either static or dynamic. In either case you can find it from the router, most are administered from a web interface.

You will need to set up port redirection if you are hosting, since an inbound connection will need to be made to your machine (not the router). The router needs to be told where (internal IP of your machine) to forward the packets and on what port. I don't know the port SMAC uses, but someone should be able to tell you.

Anyway if someone with a standard dialup connection and no firewall hosts it will work if this is the problem, since no inbound connection is required to play, just when you are hosting.

[BustaMike]

Dr. Spike... how do I set up port redirection? I have an external DSL modem providing connections for four computers. I can easily find the modem IP (somethin' like 129.219.***.***) and the local computer IP's (10.0.0.1 through 4). Port 220 sounds correct to set up the redirection, but I'm really just guessing. Anyone wanna tell me how to set this up properly, it would be much appreciated.