balancing out

[Flubber]

Yavoon

I have heard the unbalanced factions argument so many times and I remain largely unconvinced. You cite the spartans as a "weak faction" while not 6 months ago i was in a thread where there were a bunch of people telling me they were overpowered since they can boom, FM AND hit you with superior troops.

I believe everyone is entitled to their opinions but I have come to the conclusion that the factions are relatively balanced. Sure there are circumstances which tend to the strengths of one over the other but that will always be the case if they have different attributes. and Yavoon . . . simply stating your asserion that "Morgan is weak, its a fact" is hardly a strong argument

The proof as to the balanced nature comes from these boards. EVERY faction has its champions. If you posted a thread as to the strongest faction, the answers would be all across the board and you would find that some experienced players would be choosing factions you dub as weak. Personally I think that the believers are weak but that might be because they do not fit my personal playstyle. . . because there are people with differing views.

The only factions that I accept as being overpowered are the aliens. Anyone else is up for debate IMHO. I will even defend the Cult and am having my second go-round with them in MP as we speak.

[big_canuk]

All factions have their strengths and uses. All people are entitled to their opinions without being lableled naive.

Cases in point:

Believers: Chosen by cousLee(one of the best smac players of all-time), in FW2, as a partner faction for the UoP, on a large world. You can *bet* this decision has caused the 'poly and cgn teams to alter their early game tech bees and build priorities. In this case believers can go cash, and UoP can go research.

Spartans: At some point soon, I really want to play the spartans to get those elite crawlers, and especially formers. Should make formers maybe 25% more effective and crawlers a bit easier to work with, making up for the industry penalty and more. And again, one cannot overvalue the metagame aspect of affecting other players priorites, because you have the ability to do just about anything as the Spartans.

Morgan: His great weakness, is that he is so good in MP, that all the factions gang up on him. If he gets to the CV early enough, it is *bye* to all the other factions.

Blake: He's prolly the most un-naive person here! :-D

[yavoon]

ahh flubber, but I stated several times that I DON'T want this to be a thread about balance. where a buncha nutcases come out of the woodwork and feel its their sworn duty to flame me for my opinions.

asto the tired and obvious argument by blake that santiago is a great "momentum" faction. this is like spewing. deidre is a better momentum faction, she gets mindworms early, can go police state w/o getting her research raped. and like I sed, mismatching really negates the supremeness of early morale. I don't know how any of you can say that miriam can hang next to say Zak, or even Lal. One of the easiest ways to die as miriam to anyone but a computer is early. 30 years in u got jack **** for tech, ur basically running around w/ scout patrols, and ur formers might be finishing. and the amt of time it takes u to get up to impact rovers and probes(the most common really early attack method). other factions can almost literally be in the stratosphere. how is that so god damn condusive to being a great momentum faction? ur correct in saying that the time u get to crawlers makes a huge difference, since it lets u start pooling minerals to build sps, and in general start rakin in the big production.


but see, I'm being pulled by all your evil off. I didn't start this thread to argue with a buncha hippies over hw they think "life is fair."

oh btw, I was thinkin once miriam gets going and can settle down her -2 research. she would be much nicer, her main problem as I see it, is she gets hopelessly behind early, w/ that 10 year thing, and the -2 research, and there's so many techs she needs early. human brain togo fundie, nonlinear to go impact, plan networks to go probes, ind automation cuz she's playing smac, she might even wants mobility to get command centers(steals the rover chasis from the probe team), I'd say loyalty, but thats really really really stretching it, oh and of course cent. eco. if u dont get linear, ur a builder faction for the first lotsa years. and now ur in deep ****, cuz u sure as hell can't keep up w/ ne of the good builders in the game. Miriam in a nutshell is a momentum faction w/ a slow start, great combo eh?

neway I was thinkin even drop miriam's support to +1 and give her some kind of another early start boost, I'm gna have to think about it. I still like giving santiago +3 morale. oh and blake, u sed if I took away industry penalty(which I wont do), that santiago would be penaltiless, u forget she can't go wealth, which is almost as annoying as not being able to go planned or demo.

oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?


oh blake, good ideas on weakaning the uni, I'll think on it=]

[yavoon]

ahh flubber, but I stated several times that I DON'T want this to be a thread about balance. where a buncha nutcases come out of the woodwork and feel its their sworn duty to flame me for my opinions.

asto the tired and obvious argument by blake that santiago is a great "momentum" faction. this is like spewing. deidre is a better momentum faction, she gets mindworms early, can go police state w/o getting her research raped. and like I sed, mismatching really negates the supremeness of early morale. I don't know how any of you can say that miriam can hang next to say Zak, or even Lal. One of the easiest ways to die as miriam to anyone but a computer is early. 30 years in u got jack **** for tech, ur basically running around w/ scout patrols, and ur formers might be finishing. and the amt of time it takes u to get up to impact rovers and probes(the most common really early attack method). other factions can almost literally be in the stratosphere. how is that so god damn condusive to being a great momentum faction? ur correct in saying that the time u get to crawlers makes a huge difference, since it lets u start pooling minerals to build sps, and in general start rakin in the big production.


but see, I'm being pulled by all your evil off. I didn't start this thread to argue with a buncha hippies over hw they think "life is fair."

oh btw, I was thinkin once miriam gets going and can settle down her -2 research. she would be much nicer, her main problem as I see it, is she gets hopelessly behind early, w/ that 10 year thing, and the -2 research, and there's so many techs she needs early. human brain togo fundie, nonlinear to go impact, plan networks to go probes, ind automation cuz she's playing smac, she might even wants mobility to get command centers(steals the rover chasis from the probe team), I'd say loyalty, but thats really really really stretching it, oh and of course cent. eco. if u dont get linear, ur a builder faction for the first lotsa years. and now ur in deep ****, cuz u sure as hell can't keep up w/ ne of the good builders in the game. Miriam in a nutshell is a momentum faction w/ a slow start, great combo eh?

neway I was thinkin even drop miriam's support to +1 and give her some kind of another early start boost, I'm gna have to think about it. I still like giving santiago +3 morale. oh and blake, u sed if I took away industry penalty(which I wont do), that santiago would be penaltiless, u forget she can't go wealth, which is almost as annoying as not being able to go planned or demo.

oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?


oh blake, good ideas on weakaning the uni, I'll think on it=]

[T-hawk]

Originally posted by Blake
Just another post.
Some factions are more easily crippled by bad starts than others. In order of robustness:

Don't forget another aspect of starting - pod popping. There are some variables here too.

Pluses:
Deirdre. Duh. First mind worm capture guaranteed and you're off to the races. Same when you get to sea pods.
Zak. Can immediately use alien artifacts.
Spartans. Morale definitely helps against the mind worms, and getting a materials pod helps against the -INDUSTRY.

Mixed:
Yang. It makes a HUGE difference for him how much money he gets from the pods and killing worms. Getting a lot can offset his --ECONOMY for a while. But if he gets unlucky, or if pod scattering is off, he can be stuck without the money to even switch to Police State/Planned until like 2160!
Miriam. Popping terraforming pods (special resources, monolith, farm, forest, river) will greatly help against her late terraforming. Commlink or tech pods help much too. But if she gets an artifact, it can be a LONG time until she can use it, and -PLANET hurts against mindworms.
Lal. The usual for him.

Minuses:
Morgan. He's advised to be careful pod popping early, as he doesn't need the money, and with his -SUPPORT losing the independent Scout can really hurt early exploration. Wait till you get rovers. And FM hurts against mindworms too.


Hint for anyone who can capture mindworms: Turn on the Confirm Combat Odds preference. You don't get the confirm box until after the capture attempt fails -- in which case you can cancel the attack, and instead try capturing a different mindworm or try again next turn!

[big_canuk]

Originally posted by yavoon
oh and big canuck on that brilliant example fo someone going believers, umm u seem to forget, UOP was reseraching for her. omg how can u miss something so obvious like that I have no god damn idea. yes of course, the coolness of having elite crawlers makes u win smac games, I forgot ppl submit to elite crawlers. which btw u aint gna get till when? u gna make trained crawlers? w/ a bio and command center, that gives u commando. when do u plan on using ur great elite crawlers?

I'm sorry Yavoon, i guess I didn't make myself very clear.

On the Believer's and UoP, your point is exactly the one I was trying to make. The Believer's have their place. A partnership with the UoP is one of them.

On the crawlers issue: elite crawlers are not a big asset. It makes the "crawler crawl" a bit easier getting them out to the harvest points, and to rehome to new bases. It makes cashing them to SPs a bit easier. The big advantage for Sparta is elite formers(with 2 moves instead of 1). They don't have to waste a move getting to the square to terraform. They don't have to build roads ahead, so the terraforming fleet can move in and build. And crawlers and formers to not have the ability to be trained (or to be monolithed). That means the only faction that can make them is the Spartans.

bc

[Flubber]

Originally posted by T-hawk



Hint for anyone who can capture mindworms: Turn on the Confirm Combat Odds preference. You don't get the confirm box until after the capture attempt fails -- in which case you can cancel the attack, and instead try capturing a different mindworm or try again next turn!

T-hawk-- Thats a great idea and I have switched worm targets to get a successful capture IIRC, but unfortunately it just does not seem to work if you try capturing the same worm by different units on that turn. I remember playing as the Cult and encountering a worm while running +3 Planet IIRC. I had four units that could strike at the worm so I thought it would be an easy capture. I almost always play with odds ON so I tried it with each of the four units. Each one did not capture the worm so I got battle odds each time. I ended up killing the darn worm.

I have no proof of this but it seems that once a worm decides to fight for its life, that particular worm will continue to fight regardless of how many units attempt capture on that turn. I am not certain if the resistant worm may be captured on subsequent turns.



Yavoon

As far as I can see, you are the one doing the flaming here but I'm just a hippy nutcase so you can discount everything I say.

Seriously though . . . how can anyone talk about balancing the factions without discussing whether or not they are balanced in the first place ??

OH well, your sarcasm is somewhat entertaining even if your premise is flawed and not really supported by anything YOU have said.

[T-hawk]

Originally posted by Flubber
I have no proof of this but it seems that once a worm decides to fight for its life, that particular worm will continue to fight regardless of how many units attempt capture on that turn. I am not certain if the resistant worm may be captured on subsequent turns.

That's correct, based on my observance. A resistant worm CAN indeed be captured later -- IF it moves. That is, the map coordinate of the target is checked against or used as a random seed against your mindworm capture percentage. Furthermore, a particular square always has the same result for any wild (non-Planetmind) mindworm.

BTW, wild worms WILL attack a stack that consists of both captive native and non-native units, and in that case the captive native unit can be chosen as the defender. Note that this applies to Isles carrying Alien Artifacts -- wild IoDs will attack them.

[big_canuk]

Originally posted by T-hawk

BTW, wild worms WILL attack a stack that consists of both captive native and non-native units, and in that case the captive native unit can be chosen as the defender. Note that this applies to Isles carrying Alien Artifacts -- wild IoDs will attack them.

Ahhh.. Now why didn't you post this 3 weeks ago. In a recent MP turn, I got greedy and popped a pod with only 1 movement point left with an IOD. No prob, I thought, if its another IOD it won't attack. Imagine my dismay, when my IOD, with AA on board went to the bottom. I kind of thought it was because of the AA. Thanks, now I know so.

[yavoon]

have u been rading my posts flubber? I do indeed support my assertions. and my validation that I don't want a buncha ppl coming in and flaming me for my opinions is that I'd prefer if u disagreed with me, u just move on. rather than feel it ur sworn duty to flame me. I think its hypocracy that u can't see the balance differences, but I"m ok w/ that. u all talk bout how abusive pop booming is, but are too ignorant to notice that a faction that can't pop boom might be weak.

u talk about how amazing crawlers are, and can't realize that someone who can't get to them fast enuff is in effect far behind.

its really quite funny. this seeming lack of analytical ability.

as to t-hawk, ur right t hawk, I am NOT talking about partnership games. as to whether u can invent a scenario where miriam is useful, tugging on zak's coat tails is definitely one of them. but honestly, I'd still rather be hive.

all the opposing side seems to be able to do is spit 2 line strat suggestions. like some newbie. OMG u mean build bases close together and morgan is ok? I wasn't under the impression that morgan was the only faction that could build bases close together. thank u for clearing that up. I have had definite substance in my posts, along w/ sarcasm and a lil flaming. but its because I'm kinda depressed that I didnt get to talk about the changes I wnted to. and instead had to run around defending myself to a buncha unintelligent one line thoughts, that unfortunately carry no analytical substance. besides blake, who actually had cool things to say.

so I apologize to blake for atleast some of what he sed was cool

[Flubber]

Yavoon

At least you are consistent in your inconsistency. For example you talk of the importance of a pop boom like it was the be all and end all but one faction that can boom (Spartans) is on your weak list while one that cannot (Smac-Hive) is on your strong list. With Morgan you never consider his abilities to get to +2 Econ while running Demo/Green/Wealth and pick up a green army at the same time or the massive research possible with Demo/FM/Knowledge. Morgan is a money faction and one that can get crawlers about as quick as Zak and the initial cash means faster rush-builds. The suggestion to pack in the bases was there because (it bears repeating)Morgan has poor support, gets more energy from the base square and has lower pop limits-- but you just slam someone for mentioning it. Man if you get uppity any time someone points out something you happen to know . . . well lets just say its not very friendly.

As for flaming . . I have not done that and do not intend to start. This board has been very polite. You are relatively new on this board (at least under this identity) so posters may point out some more basic stuff that you already know. I find it interesting that you feel the need to "defend " yourself if someone expresses a contrary opinion and in fact have moved to complaining about the fact that anyone did.


My point is a a simple one. Although I personally cannot play all factions equally well and am worse at some than others, I see that as a function of me. It is not necessarily the faction that is weak --its just that a player may not be particularly skilled with that faction. So when someone such as yourself believes that a certain faction is "weak" (or in your case 3 of them) then I think you have to also consider the practice and opinions of other players. The Spartans for instance have some very strong advocates that believe they are one of the strongest factions, so excuse me if I don't just accept your analysis which seemed to be that industry penalty+ no wealth= weak.

I am curious. . . yavoon, have you played much multiplayer? Because I thought I knew a fair bit about this game until I started playing MP. Win or lose you see a lot of ways that factions can be used differently. Perhaps you have played a ton of MP in which case it would be interesting what the experience of the various factions have been in your games.

The debate rages as to balance, but for the Smac 7 I see reasonably good balance there. I would play any of them except Miriam (since I have never figured her out). I tend to think that the factions are reasonably balanced on a standard average world. Go very big or very small and the picture can change radically.

[yavoon]

again two line strat quips. I thank u so much flubber for doing it over and over. why do I have to respond to this? it must be the sickness of my pride. ok lets go.

first hive, yes hive can't pop boom, but when u look at wut a hive running police/plannd/wealth can do, its prolly the most severely brutal faction in smac. so its not that I didn't take pop booming into account, or that I consider it the be all and end all.

but then u take someone like morgan, who starts slow w/ his minus support. can't pop boom, isn't good at momentum. wut is he to do? he will INEVITABLY be behind the pop booming builder factions, his support hit takes him out of the momentum faction race. and his size 11 restriction hurts him even further, that is once he gets to size 11, like 50 years behind everyone else already having gotten there.

how many times do I have to say I'm not impressed by your one thought strategy quips, like somehow I'm gna go OMG U MEAN MORGAN CAN GO DEMO/GREEN/WEALTH I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. plz ur deluding yourself. how much bonus does +2 econ give to specialists flubber? thats wut I thot. all this great talk about 10 specialists/base and boreholes, both of which reduce the effect of +2 econ. and really make it mostly an early game consideration.

btw, in my book flubber, u have flamed me, don't make me bring out quotes of u mocking me, or taking cheap shots at me, cuz I have enuff things to worry about. the largest balancing factor in smac is undoubtedly its scope. the starting positions can very greatly, luck/skill/indifference(like I've already sed) can makeup for a lot. but that doesn't mean everything is fair. or things can't be thot on and improved. I really tire of defending such weak attacks as yours. and since it seems u don't read my posts, repetition might as well suit me. giving one liner strategy quips WILL NOT impress me in the least. nor will appealing to some ambiguous authority. cuz frankly if u can't see the differeing values of the factions, then u indeed aren't worthy of authority.

[Avenoct]

Yavoon, you are truly entertaining, if enraging, to read.

Maybe a misconception you have is that you control threads you start?
People, some of the brightest at Apolyton, came out to try to help discuss this topic. If they don't address your topic, maybe restate more clearly? I think that the topic has been addressed. Some suggestions for balancing the factions you feel are unbalanced have been made. Let go man/woman, it's going to be o.k.

-Smack

[Flubber]

A few points

1. I reread my posts and no flames. The sarcasm was yours. I have disputed your arguments and that is all.

2. In a bug free game (SMAX), Morgan can pop boom relatively easily with Golden Ages ( and I know you probably knew that too). Other than that you will probably respond to any argument with your sarcastic indication that you knew that fact. people could do the same to you-- OMG MORGAN HAS SUPPORT ISSUES AND A LOWER POP LIMIT. There, I guess I made my first effective statement since it was in your debating style LOL.

3. I repeat my question as to whether you have played much multiplayer. It is a learning experience for most players as it continues to be for me. I believe that the game has sufficient complexity that the learning never stops. You may have played a ton of MP and come to your beliefs from that experience.

4. To me the only true test for whether factions are balanced or not is in MP since the AI is idiotic. Since there is no way to quantify the different attributes we could argue in circles forever. I won't bother with this topic further since as you have said, you really don't want to hear from anyone who disagrees with you.

[WhiteElephants]

As annoying as the way yavoon chooses to type, I have to agree with him that not all factions were created equal. BUT throw in three or more human players into the mix and anything goes no matter if you choose the strongest faction or the weakest.