The Great Wall Defense

[Scipio Centaurus]

SITREP: I'm playing Morgan on transcend difficulty against the original factions (SMAX). I have reached the midgame - Dem/FM/Wealth all the way - and have a nice carpet of crawlers nursing at the various terrain enhancements. Every faction is at vendetta with me, except the Peacekeepers... because I refuse to give up techs for truces in this game. Yang and Dierdre get frustrated by my ability to rush build SPs out from under them, and begin to send needlejests directly into the heart of my island corporatocracy, for the sole purpose of killing my crawlers.

After rebuilding (and re-losing) many crawlers, I finally resorted to the 'Great Wall' defense to prevent these incursions by my enemies. The Great Wall defense is just like it sounds - a defensive unit (I used mindworms) in every coastal land square along the invading forces' flight paths.

It worked! All invasions of my home turf came to a screeching halt as soon as I completed the 'Wall'. The AI wouldn't even attempt direct attacks on the coastal mindwoms in an attempt to break through. Basically, my enemies' aircraft and ships were left patrolling endlessly back and forth along my coastlines - easy prey for my Shard Rotors. Occaisionally an enemy ship would bombard a mindworm to little effect. Later in the game - after I developed Clean AAA Sentinels with 8-Res armor - I began substituting these for the coastal mindworm defenders. Never completed that project because the game ended.

The biggest problem I had with the coastal defense concept is with the global warming. From time-to-time the associated rising sea levels would wash one or two of my mindworm boils out to sea, leaving temporary gaps in the 'Wall'. BTW, if you don't attend to these gaps immediately, the AI will find them and send a couple of crawler sniping airwings into the interior of your homeland.

I wound up accumulating 35,000 EC (not enough to corner the energy market) without very much trouble and when Yang finally built the Voice of Planet, I initiated and paid cash (no crawlers!) for the Ascent on the very next turn. My earliest and easiest victory against the AI to date.

Has anybody tried anything similar to this? I am interested in hearing about any defensive strategies that anyone has tried in their games.

Can anybody think of ways to improve the Great Wall strategy?

[Avenoct]

I've never taken it to the extreme, but I've long suspected it would work. Even with a partial wall the AI will go around to get to the crawlers. I occassionally use this to run the AI noodles out of jetfuel or to advance my troops in safety. I call the whole thing the Carrot and the Horse because the AI will keep going for the crawlers which it can never reach (they get tucked back in the luring base or are sacrificed for a fresh new crawler the next turn). It's so bad I consider the whole AI tendency to go for formers and crawlers a bug. There is really nothing one can do to change this...grrr! Attack my Silksteel AAA SAM rover you moronic noodle!

-Smack

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Smack
...Even with a partial wall the AI will go around to get to the crawlers.

Exactly. I built the wall starting from the point where the NJs were initially coming in and expanded it along the coast in both directions. It took several turns and during those turns, the AI attempted to 'flank' the wall several times in order to get at the cream filling!

...I consider the whole AI tendency to go for formers and crawlers a bug. There is really nothing one can do to change this...grrr! Attack my Silksteel AAA SAM rover you moronic noodle!

I'm not so displeased with the AI effort to get to the infrastructure... that's pretty much what the Allies did in WWII. Bombed the he$$ out of every bridge and manufacturing facility they could fly over.

I think the real problem is the AI is not sophisticated enough to recognize that it can never reach the goodies unless it makes a successful breakthrough somewhere along the defensive line. Reaching that conclusion requires the ability to recognize the impossibility of reaching the goal by direct maneuver, the massing of substantial forces for an assault and the ability to identify an isolated point of 'weakness' along a line.

I know for a fact the AI can handle each of these requirements individually, so it just needs some coordination of the tasks.

I wonder if there is some simple tweak to the game rules that might force (allow) the AI to make such an assault?

Oh well, if we want to play accurate military simulations, there are much better games than SMAC available, right?

- Scipio

[Avenoct]

Exactly. I built the wall starting from the point where the NJs were initially coming in and expanded it along the coast in both directions. It took several turns and during those turns, the AI attempted to 'flank' the wall several times in order to get at the cream filling!

Now if we could only funnel those noodles into an airborne tar-pit of sorts...cream filling heheh.

I'm not so displeased with the AI effort to get to the infrastructure... that's pretty much what the Allies did in WWII. Bombed the he$$ out of every bridge and manufacturing facility they could fly over.

True, but we didn't have to fly out of Britain, around Japan, and THEN to Germany like the AI might try to do...and on a more serious note, that aspect of the allied 'grand strategy' has been hotly debated ever since both in the magnitude and quality of it's effect.

-S-

[Ned]

Scipio, Cloaking the crawlers also works. But that is a late game strategy.

It might be interesting to move the cloak ability to earlier in the game.

Alternatively, it might be very interesting to move the copter unit to the same tech as the cloak!

Ned

[Scipio Centaurus]

Ned, are you sure about the cloaking? Seems like I had a similar problem with Miriam sending penetrators into my territory after crawlers a few games back, and I did design and build cloaked crawlers.

But I distinctly remember that Miriam flew her NJs into my turf anyway and once one of her NJs was adjacent to any of my cloaked crawlers the NJ would 'spot' the crawler and promptly destroy it. Maybe I was making some fundamental mistake in the way I deployed the units, but I got the distinct impression that Miriam 'knew' I had crawlers even if she couldn't say exactly where they were until she was on top of them.

Not sure I follow the comment about moving copters to the same place as cloaking? Wouldn't needlejests have to be moved as well?

- Scipio

[Sikander]

I do this all the time. It is part of a larger 'hollow' strategy I like to use. Given a decent roundish continent, I place my bases along the coast. I space them either every other square or every third square so as to give each base about 10 workable squares. When I am finished my continent is surrounded with bases, and if it is large enough there is an empty area (hence the hollow strategy) which I crawl extensively. In every non-base coastal square a crawler or an armored infantry probe team goes. This quickly eliminates the chance of a pre-marine landing on my continent. As time marches on I upgrade my defenders. I just don't leave any way for an attacker to bust into my soft and chewy center except through attrition. This isn't all that easy to accomplish, because every base is sited on a sensor, and I usually have interceptors in each base, which means that it may take some time just to wear down my interceptor force. All in all it is more than enough defense against the AI, even if all of them gang up on me.

[Ned]

On cloaking, the one time I had the problem of a hostile neighbor going after my crawlers, cloaking did seem to work. I also cloaked formers and sea formers. This ended my problem of AI picking everything off in a war of attrition.

It does seem to work. However, any unit can still see a cloaked unit if it tries to move into its square. I suspect this is why some of your crawlers are picked off.

As to the other comment, we have had the discussion on how to limit the copter's capability so as to level the playing field with the AI. The copter is the most powerful weapon in the game with its good range and multiple attack capability. The solution most often suggested is simple to limit its range. I suggest moving it to much later in the tech tree. I now see that moving it to the same tech as one gets the cloaking ability might be just right.

Another possiblity may also be to move the grav ship to MMI.

Actually, I am going to modify my alpahax.txt right now.

Ned

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Sikander
I do this all the time. It is part of a larger 'hollow' strategy I like to use. Given a decent roundish continent, I place my bases along the coast. I space them either every other square or every third square so as to give each base about 10 workable squares. When I am finished my continent is surrounded with bases, and if it is large enough there is an empty area (hence the hollow strategy) which I crawl extensively.

Sounds like what I would do except I would have fewer coastal bases and I would have some inland bases. There were about 8 to 10 open coastal tiles between each of my coastal bases in the game in question. I did have bases 1 or 2 squares removed from the coastline about midway between each pair of port bases.

...In every non-base coastal square a crawler or an armored infantry probe team goes. This quickly eliminates the chance of a pre-marine landing on my continent. As time marches on I upgrade my defenders. I just don't leave any way for an attacker to bust into my soft and chewy center except through attrition. This isn't all that easy to accomplish, because every base is sited on a sensor, and I usually have interceptors in each base, which means that it may take some time just to wear down my interceptor force. All in all it is more than enough defense against the AI, even if all of them gang up on me.

I'm curious to hear what actions you would take to compensate for the rising sea levels caused by global warming? Both, the mild case where coastal tiles are 'washed' clean of terrain enhancements and units... and the more severe case where coastal tiles are actually submerged.

The wall of perimeter sentries is the most powerful defense I have seen to date... by the end of the game in question Every other faction was in a state of vendetta against me. At various times, up to 4 factions had agreed to combine forces with one another to attack me, and their military units would all congregate off of a narrow peninsula of my island trying to find some way to breakthrough. My Shard Rotors had a field day! Except for Yang's fusion transports... for some reason my Shard Rotors went down by the droves trying to sink those?!

The final nail in the AI's coffin was when I got level 8 armor. Then even the conventional missiles started bouncing off the sentries in my more exposed seabases.

- Scipio

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Ned
...It [cloaking] does seem to work. However, any unit can still see a cloaked unit if it tries to move into its square. I suspect this is why some of your crawlers are picked off.

Yes. I think I see my mistake now. I was upgrading the crawlers one at a time starting with the crawlers closest to my enemy. This allowed her to fly her penetrators in targeting my uncloaked crawlers on the far side of my territory, and of course her NJs would then 'stumble' across my frontline cloaked crawlers and take them out. The best solution may be to just upgrade everything to cloaked all at once, or else start cloaking the rear units first and work your way forward. Then swap cloaked crawlers with uncloaked frontline crawlers as quickly as possible.

As to the other comment, we have had the discussion on how to limit the copter's capability so as to level the playing field with the AI. The copter is the most powerful weapon in the game with its good range and multiple attack capability...

OK. I thought you were making the copter comment in reference to the defensive strategy.

Yes, I agree that the copter unit is way overpowered compared to NJs, but there is no law saying the AI cannot use it to the same effect that any human can use it.

I have only seen the AI make efficient use of copters once. Yang had built about 30 Chaos/Shard copters and another faction PBd one of his bases. From that moment on, Yang sent his copters out in swarms, scouring the enemy countryside (and oceanside!) of every enemy combat and non-combat unit he came across. Then he did the same thing with the enemy's bases and seabases, cleaning out every single garrison unit! He did this in reasonable (not perfect) coordination with his naval and drop units moving in and capturing empty bases - making that the only time I have seen the AI come close to conducting a 'chop and drop' blitzkrieg style campaign of conquest. Yang's copters made multiple attacks in the same turn with the copters frequently moving off to strike additional targets if movement points were available.

It was an awesome (and perhaps once in a lifetime) display of military prowess from the AI!

- Scipio

[Googlie]

IMHO the AI is not so dumb. That's exactly what Tau Ceti and Misotu have combined to do to big_canuk and me in OKF3. b_c (Hive) has a huge industrial infrastructure with over 100 crawlers, and I (Borgs) have the tech lead with a great research rate supplied by a crawling energy park. They took out 20 of his crawlers, and 7 of mine, immediately reducing us to near parity with their alliance.

Sure they are suicide choppers, but the cost/reward ratio is huge, not just in damage, but in lost minerals/research

So the AI is not really so dumb ....

Googlie

[Lefty Scaevola]

I saw someone post once that the "rabbit hunting" AI, while attacking crawlers and formers and not combat units, will attack armored AAA crawlers and formers, and that you could put these out front to bushwhack his marauding aircraft. Does anyone here have experience to confirm or deny this?.

[freshman]

IMHO the best and cheapest defence is good diplomacy. If you want Gians to be your friends, switch away from FM to Green. Your Wealth setting is sufficient to pull in +1 energy / square with Morgan. Heck, you can even just run a GA and switch from Wealth to Knowledge if you want to make friends with Zak and still pull in +1 energy/square. To illustrate the power of this strategy, try forcing yourself to use diplomacy as your only means of defence by playing OCC. BTW, it is not easy. Some of your crawlers will still get attacked, gauranteed. But usually they talk to you after attacking you, so that they can make demands on you after just demonstrating their awesome power. Give in. Be pacifist. Spend your minerals on SPs and improvements instead of defence. When playing the AI, you can sure use diplomacy more effectively than playing against a human! So take advantage of it!

A great wall defense seems difficult to maintain and plug. It is proportional to the circumferance of your sprawl - fine for 1 city and 1 farm, but not so hot for an empire of 10+ cities, 2,3 farms. That's a lot of minerals used for units which may never get attacked.

Just an opinion from a freshman, who has only played 2 games.

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Googlie
IMHO the AI is not so dumb. That's exactly what Tau Ceti and Misotu have combined to do to big_canuk and me in OKF3. b_c (Hive) has a huge industrial infrastructure with over 100 crawlers, and I (Borgs) have the tech lead with a great research rate supplied by a crawling energy park. They took out 20 of his crawlers, and 7 of mine, immediately reducing us to near parity with their alliance.

So there you have it... now all you and big-canuck have to do is put up a wall of mindworms and there is no way Misotu and Tau Ceti can touch your crawlers!

- Scipio

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by freshman
IMHO the best and cheapest defence is good diplomacy...

But what happens when 3 or 4 factions with conflicting ideology are all within airstrike range of your homeland - as was the case in the game in question? Diplomacy can be very tricky in those circumstances. BTW, I think I can scrounge up the final turn SAV file if anyone wants to take a gander. Send an inquiry to brperry@pacbell.net

...To illustrate the power of this strategy, try forcing yourself to use diplomacy as your only means of defence by playing OCC.

That would be a very interesting challenge game! You should lay out the ground rules and set it up.

...A great wall defense seems difficult to maintain and plug.

Surprisingly easy, since I had a number of bases producing double-digit minerals by the time I thought of building it. Such a city can build a MW in 4-6 turns w/o even rushing. I set all of my threatened coastal bases along the invasion front producing a couple of MWs each, and had a couple of larger interior bases rush building infinite MWs till the gaps were all plugged. Took less than 10 years.

Maintenance was never a serious problem. As indicated, the AI never assaulted the MWs at all. There were a few minor naval artillery bombardments but after my Shard Rotors dealt with those attackers, the MWs on station healed up quite nicely.

BTW, I don't believe the MWs cost me any ECs for maintenance... I could be wrong about that, but even if they did, I never missed the ECs. If you get clean technology fairly early, that is another way to go, but I think most players will get to MW capability long before they get Clean. There is also some SP (Nanotechnology?) that allows units to heal completely in the field. That one could be useful if you prefer a human-based defensive wall.

Of course, I did eventually put in bunkers on all coastal squares, but superformers handled that in no time at all.

Just keep a few spare defenders in reserve to plug those occaissional gaps caused by coastal flooding and then ignore the wall and go to work building your infrastructure!

It [the defensive wall] is proportional to the circumferance of your sprawl - fine for 1 city and 1 farm, but not so hot for an empire of 10+ cities, 2,3 farms. That's a lot of minerals used for units which may never get attacked.

I had control of a mid-sized island with 16 land bases (all wound up at size 10+).

In fact, I never actually built the perimeter defenses all the way around the island. The 'backside' of the island was never really threatened by any faction, so I didn't bother to defend it.

The savings in ECs from crawlers that weren't lost to enemy sniping and the replacement crawlers that never had to be built more than compensate for any expense in putting together the wall, IMHO.

...Just an opinion from a freshman, who has only played 2 games.

All opinions are welcome!

- Scipio