newbie OCC questions

[freshman]

OK, so I've been a Civ2 player and have done the ICS thing as well as OCC and thought I'd give AC a shot. So far I've been pleasantly surprised with the level of complexity and challenge AC has over Civ2. I thought I'd start right off with a Basic OCC, no weapon units, rules as stated in some challenge specification in a thread by Velociryix. This being my first AC game ever, I thought I'd get a good picture of the tech tree, improvements, and SPs to learn the game better this way doing OCC. With my first game ever of OCC still in progress I've had several difficulties and questions come up. Could some of you veterans be so kind as to give me some tips?

I played Morgan, FM/Wealth with ME, belined for IA and energy restriction lifting too. I was only able to manage 5 energy out of tidal harness squares and somebody mentioned that there is a thermocline transducer which would yield me 6, but no where is it mentioned in my help (Q1: is this a SMAX only thing?)
Anyway in a short period I was able to net 150 energy, but stopped building supply crawlers to take a break to build some SPs before the other guys did. I also maxed my pop at 13 with hab+AV via PopBoom (Dem/Creche/GA) and worked 2 boreholes and lots of forest with Hybrid Forect. Since I'm Morgan, Wealth is sufficient to get the +1 energy/square - so I switched from FM to Green for the better Planet rating - to avoid the nussiance of fungal blooms and worms - and also hoped the Gaians would look more favorably on me - to no avail.

I missed 4 of the early SPs which bummed me out (CNex, WP, HG, Empath Guild)
I did get ME, CDF, AV, PTS, VW. OK So CDF and PTS aren't that helpful - I was just going for cheap SPs to get me closer to 16 as stated in the rules.
Zac beat me to HSA because I couldn't direct my probes to steal Sentient Algorithms (Quest#2). That is a major bummer. I can think of one reason why I'd want to conquer and starve a city - and that is to keep the HSA out of the hands of whoever! I do have some general probe team questions (Q3,Q4,Q5,Q9) - next time I'll definitly not forget to infiltrate Zak and check up on when he gets Sentient Algorithms and steal it no matter what. When you limit your game to using only probe actions, you can't let HSA fall into anyone's hands!

I've pretty much avoided Conquer tech, can't build units with weapons, so why bother. But it pains me to see Mobility as 1/3 of my tech choice, and have it cost so much (Q6). That strategy was good in that I directed efforts towards hybrid forests, crawlers and energy restrictions, but now I'm in a tight bind because I've got two factions with Air Power starting to take out my crawlers - Zak and Yang and I don't even have armor to defend myself with. (Q7 -> Q5). I can't seem to build non-weapon units - there is no none-option, so what should I do - choose hand weapons (1) and just not use it to attack? (Q8) Am I allowed to make worms? Just what kind of units am I allowed to make in OCC? Examples please, acronym free preferably. Meanwhile I've pulled back all my supply crawlers back into my base - which sucks - until I can retrofit them with some defenses (Q7). I could just keep pumping out new ones as they are destroyed, but that seems like such a temporary fix. I'd like to take out the nearest base so that Zak doesn't have a launching platform - but with HSA I'm going to have to do it by force- which means bribing an army. I might take out his HSA base first.

In civ I've always been able to avoid war during OCC until the end - and then I could kick butt. But now without an army I'm too weak and Zak (a Pact brother) turned on me when I refused to go to war with another neighbor. I can't patch things up because he refuses to even talk to me. I'm really scared because I won't be able to bribe his units! I have to go to war with Yang just to bribe some units to defend myself with against Zak. Is it possible to have a war-free OCC game? I've tried my darndest to give into most demands to avoid war. Its a pain though when one of their demands is to declare war against their enemy! Are there some diplomatic finesses I don't know about to help keep the peace (Q13)

Eco damage is about to sink my city so I've got some minor questions (Q10,Q11,Q12) about that

Questions
1) Is a thermocline transducer in SMAX only - is PEG (Planetary Energy Grid a SMAX only thing too?)
2) Can probe teams target specific techs to steal? I never got the option - how?
3) What are the 2 percentages listed during a probe action, is the first success, and the second get away?
4) How does morale of probe effect its ability to succeed in a mission - when do they get morale boost?
5) Can you bribe air units - I was unable to mix Probe with Air Superiority - are there ways to do this?
6) What determines tech cost - the exact formula would be nice to know - are there key civs like in Civ2? Does tech level matter - or only #discovered/stolen/traded tech?
7) How do I defend myself against air units - esp my crawlers? How effective is the "replacement" method?
8) I can't seem to build non-weapon units - there is no none-option when I click on the weapon slot, what should I do - choose hand weapons and just not use it to attack?
9) What is the formula for base mind control - how is it affected if there are drone riots? Is it a cheap way to buy lots of military units - or are those taken into account too?
10) My city and borehole are about to be submerged. I would like to continue to have my city be next to water so that I can use sea crawlers for energy. I'm afraid if I lift my city I'll make the neighboring two ocean squares into land - I'm hoping by raising the land adjacent to my city will leave my sea access intact. How are neighboring squares affected elevation-wise when you raise?
11) If my city is submerged (already have Pressure Dome) can I continue to build land units if I'm next to land?
12) Why do people like putting boreholes on coastal squares - is that so other areas are to be raised and energy farmed?. What happens to submerged boreholes - what happens when you lift them after being submerged?
13)Are there some diplomatic finesses I don't know about to help keep the peace?

[knowhow2]

Re: newbie OCC questions

Questions
1) Is a thermocline transducer in SMAX only - is PEG (Planetary Energy Grid a SMAX only thing too?)

YES and YES

2) Can probe teams target specific techs to steal? I never got the option - how?

NO they can't

3) What are the 2 percentages listed during a probe action, is the first success, and the second get away?

traceable and NOT traceable

4) How does morale of probe effect its ability to succeed in a mission - when do they get morale boost?

every time they succed to a probe action

5) Can you bribe air units - I was unable to mix Probe with Air Superiority - are there ways to do this?

NO, not while they're at air (in base or close to base YES)

6) What determines tech cost - the exact formula would be nice to know - are there key civs like in Civ2? Does tech level matter - or only #discovered/stolen/traded tech?

tech level matters but I'm not sure about the exact formula, there are others here better at this than me

7) How do I defend myself against air units - esp my crawlers? How effective is the "replacement" method?

well, difficult question, I'll have to say that AA tracking and best armour but to be honest it's cheaper to just replace them.

8) I can't seem to build non-weapon units - there is no none-option when I click on the weapon slot, what should I do - choose hand weapons and just not use it to attack?

non-weapon (or non-combat) units are supply/transport/probe/former WITHOUT armour.

9) What is the formula for base mind control - how is it affected if there are drone riots? Is it a cheap way to buy lots of military units - or are those taken into account too?

bases at drone riots are easier and cheaper to buy.

10) My city and borehole are about to be submerged. I would like to continue to have my city be next to water so that I can use sea crawlers for energy. I'm afraid if I lift my city I'll make the neighboring two ocean squares into land - I'm hoping by raising the land adjacent to my city will leave my sea access intact. How are neighboring squares affected elevation-wise when you raise?

this one I'm not an expert at but there are plenty of threads about formers and land raising

11) If my city is submerged (already have Pressure Dome) can I continue to build land units if I'm next to land?

you can always build land units in a seabase no matter how far away from land you are.

12) Why do people like putting boreholes on coastal squares - is that so other areas are to be raised and energy farmed?. What happens to submerged boreholes - what happens when you lift them after being submerged?

boreholes provides MINERAL which is difficult to create at sea (seaminers cost to much and provides to little for the effort), boreholes will submerges and disappear, nothing happens (meaning that they stay dry) if you keep them out of the water.

13)Are there some diplomatic finesses I don't know about to help keep the peace?

also a very complex question - find a thread and read about it.
but generally, have the same Social Settings as the faction you want to be friend with.

hope that help some
knowhow2

[Avenoct]

Freshman,

Ambitious first game for SMAC I must say. I'm no veteran of OCC games, but I'm sure if you did a search on 'OCC' you'd turn up some advice. I agree with the responses of KnowHow2, and certainly many of your questions could use a further elaboration. I did notice one thing

so I switched from FM to Green for the better Planet rating - to avoid the nussiance of fungal blooms and worms

which made me think that you havn't yet read the Ecodamage article by Ned, et. al..

As to formers and raising land, try turning on the scenario editor in a test-game and fooling with the raise-lower land feature that mimics the former's effect in this aspect. Military units in a base just next to land cannot walk out onto the land unless: 1. they are amphibious (marine), or 2. there is a transport vessel in the base. Something to keep in mind.

I'm not sure what's considered combat units for the OCC, but the only units you can armor without giving a weapon are the former, probe, crawler, and transport. Probes have their own odd rules for combat when stacked with other units.

Good luck, and welcome to SMAC! You can be sure an OCC veteran will stumble into this thread sooner or later.

-Smack

[RedFred]

Diplomacy is very important in OCC. It is possible to play an entire OCC game without conflict - but it is not easy. The route that I have had the most luck with is to try to make friends or pacts with everyone ASAP. Around midgame set up SE (social engineering) choices that conflict with a distant and ineffectual enemy. Better still is to honour a pact by agreeing to go to war with said distant faction. It seems to me that maintaining total peace is more difficult that having a token enemy. With luck you won't see any battles or your outer perimeter of crawlers will absorb any damage. Armor on outermost crawlers should help.

I have never subverted any units, nor seen temporarily taking over other cities as fair play in this challenge. But the ultimate challenge is very ambitious to start out with. Go basic challenge first and then move up. Personally I have never won with fewer than three military units that I have built or captured (native green style captures).

The SMACX challenge may actually be easier. The thermocline transducer helps. As does the ability to pick and choose six other factions from the fourteen in SMAC and SMACX combined. The other edge is the extra SPs (special or secret projects) and the longer tech tree that allows you to more easily fill the SP requirements.

You were very ambitious with all the early SPs. I found it less disruptive to my development to go for more in the mid or late game. One man's opinion of the important OCC SPs: Supercollider, Theory of Everything, Merchant Exchange, Empath Guild, Weather Paradigm, Ascent to Transcendance, Ascetic Virtues, Cloning Vats, Longevity Vaccine, Network Backbone, Self Aware Colony, Universal Translator... Universal Traslator? Okay. Now I am reaching a bit. No SMACX? No worries. None of those extra SPs is critical to OCC. Voice of Planet is not strictly necessary but I feel like I have somehow reduced the integrity of my victory without it.

For the basic challenge a costal city that can utilize both land and sea crawlers is best. But IIRC the .sav I saw of Velociryx's ultimate challenge victory had him in the middle of a small continent to himself.

A further word on SE choices. In order to avoid conflict, consider keeping your defaults for a while. Going both Wealth and FM is dangerous from a conflict standpoint because so many factions dislike one or the other.

Keep feeding your pactmates tech. That way they will often give you some back. It seems to work best if you are roughly at tech parity with your buddies until late in the game when you can open up a lead fairly safely. And good luck on the next game.

[freshman]

Many thanks to all.

RedFred,
Thanks for your diplomacy tips. Keeping the peace has always been central to OCC - even with Civ2 - and so I know of its importance. I didn't know if keeping the peace was even possible in AC, but now I do - if you work at it. I did indeed start out playing that way - agreeing to war with a distant ineffectual army to keep the peace with a neighbor. However, there was a point in the game where one pact-mate (Zak) kept asking me to go to war with another neighbor (Yang) and so I was in a catch-22 - I would have to war with some neighbor. The only finesse I can think of that I didn't try was to request that Zak call off his vendetta against Yang - and vice versa - with maybe some gold (sorry - I still call it gold) to sway him. Maybe I'll dig up an old save just to see if that helps. (Just a note: I normally do not revert to old games and brag about a better outcome - I do it only to learn some new tactic so that I know better for next time when I put it in practice for real and can legitimately brag!)
Next time I'll play around more with SE settings, and gift more techs over and above supporting their demands.

I did try the "replacement" strategy with my crawlers which failed miserably, as Needlejets took out 2 per turn and I could only crank out 1 per turn. I don't think I'll be able to turn the game around now - even with good armor and AAA. So I turned the game into a Game Exploration Excercise where I test my assumptions and goof off trying new things:

I incited Drone Riots and bought off cities cheap. Then to keep the garrisons, rather than starve the city which would also starve support from the garrisons, I disbanded the city (executing the citizens). I didn't want to keep a neighboring city as it might be a potential launch point for a current ally who would later turn on me. I guess I should have more faith and turn it over to a friend - but that line from Return of the Jedi comes back to me when the Emperor says "And you weakness is your faith in your friends". Anyway - the economic sanctions weren't too bad, and so this is a tactic I will keep in mind for future games (non OCC) when I want to deny anyone access to a SP in that city. I still would like to know the formula for mind control.

I also got frustrated at my failed attempts to send a probe to a neighboring city because their aircraft would patrol and snuff me out. So, I made a NeedleJet-Transport, and loaded it up with a Probe team and crashed it next to the city - the probe team survives - and can enter the city! Cool, huh? I never would have thought to do that in Civ!

One thing really made me mad. I raised a square next to two other endangered squares (including my base - unfortunately can't raise the base square itself) and it didn't raise my base square! I tried it again in another spot - still no luck (was adjacent) I tried it again - and this time it warned me about BREAKING A Treaty??? So I had to cancel? Is that a bug? Can raising land really tick off a neighbor - does territory come into play? As I was unable to get my base off the endangered list, I fully expected to see it submerged. Well the Global warming came and went, and the endangered squares were still above water - half of my forests were wiped out, and my borehole was taken out - but all remained ABOVE water??!! What happened? (I do have MAC-version w/ 1.5 patch)

RedFred - on to your recommended wonders I developed minimalist strategies with Civ. But the challenge is to build 16 SPs so I guess you're going to pick up a non-essential one every once in a while. I've found that all but a handful seem to be essential; I wish more SPs were useful.

Supercollider-Theory of Everything- YES- just like in Civ 100% research is key to a tech-win.

Merchant Exchange- yes - just like in Civ (Colossus) this really helps OCC for extra trade (I mean energy).

Empath Guild - yes - I've always liked Marco Polos Embassy in Civ and found it indispensible - in AC it seems having infiltration and contact can only be even more important than in Civ.

Weather Paradigm - ok - can live without though - but I can see how early boreholes can help.

Ascent to Transcendance - do you have to build this to Transcend? If so, I guess you have to build it.

Ascetic Virtues - who needs police? Who needs +2 pop limit? Nice, but non-essential

Cloning Vats - yes - keep out of hands of somebody going for a diplomatic victory!

Longevity Vaccine - yes - money! (in Civ OCC early economy improvements control your destiny)

Network Backbone - wow - just looked this one up - could add potentially 40 research points or so - is that before the research lab+SP modifiers?

Self Aware Colony - hmm. shouldn't matter with all the dough that's coming in.

Universal Translator - SMAX only, right?

I would add Hunter Seeker to the list of essentials for OCC - simply to keep it out of enemy hands. Maybe, though, with good playing, you have no enemies that you'd need to bribe...Hey I just realized that Miriam (Believer) has an automatic HSA with Fundy! So she can be assured that her one prized posession, Doctrine:Mobility, will be safe from all

Hey - I'm really having fun learning this awesome game. I realize its been out a while but its new to me!

[freshman]

How surreal...
I posted about exterminating people and crashing a needlejet - in a game - and something for real like this happens.

I'm deeply saddened. It should remind us all that there is a far more complex political, economic, ecologic, and military REAL world than this simplified game.

I don't really want to preach, but there is so much talent on these boards; we might reconsider aiming our efforts at dealing with making the real world a better place. There is nothing more serious than terrorism; or real global warming for that matter. The world needs intelligent people actively involved in the spread of peace and global health.

For those interested in a real challenge...

[Xian]

Im pretty sure the universal translator is in the original game

[Deimos]

Originally posted by freshman
For those interested in a real challenge...

I couldn't have said it better.

My best wishes and hopes for a joyous reuion between family members and friends affected by this most tragic of days.

I am anxiously awaiting further news concerning my close friend, Sgt. Mike, who was injured by today's attack on the Pentagon...

[RedFred]

A very black day. My sympathies to the victims and their families. I have friends and family in NY and just across the river in NJ that I haven't heard from.

On the +2 population before hab domes SP, I have found that maximizing your population to be very helpful. Obviously I'll beeline for hab domes, but they come a bit later in the game.

Universal Translator is part of SMAC and does have a Civ counterpart - Darwin's Voyage in Civ1, I think. You get two instant advances. The other thing is that you can cash all your stored up Alien Artifacts (AA) for yet more tech. Normally you are limited to one per city - a big problem for OCC.

The Weather Paradigm will speed up your terraforming as well as give you lots more options early on.

On the neighbours objecting to raising land, this only happens if you are going to be raising land in their territory. Raising or dropping land can have an impact several squares away. Raising or dropping sea level has a more localized effect.

Bases that say "endangered" on them are at serious risk to drop below sea level. Other options to raising the land around your base, include passing a motion in council to drop them. And the other thing you can do is build a pressure dome and just put up with the ocean.

Endangered squares also can experience "wash". This is when your improvements get wiped out. It is apparently a feature and not a bug.

[Flubber]

Raising land always changes the elevation by 1000 m. Then there is a rule that adjacent squares cannot differ by more than 1 "step" where the steps are


0-999
1000-1999
2000-2999 etc (works the same for water dephs)

so if you pull up a square that is at 600 so that it goes to 1600 or so, all square adjacent to the pulled square must have a positive elevation. So if you pull up a coastal square all adjacent water squares will come up out of the water BUT the endangered square with an elevation of 200m does not necessarily come up.


The effect of improvements disappearing is called "washing" by some . I bumped a thread I started (I am a renamed cbn)some months ago where this was discussed in detail.

I remain frustrated by the sea rises since I too have been faced with losing improvements or temporarily losing a port. It is always possible to terraform a new sea access by using sea formers to pull sea squares down but it is a painful process

[Leonidas]

OCC are tough in either game