The Best cost-efficient SE for an optimal overall strategy

[Nadexander]

Re: Gaian SE solution #?

Originally posted by Cybergod
Run Fundy, Planned and Knowledge as Deidre, you get in total:

+2 GROWTH
+1 INDUSTRY
+1 PLANET
+1 EFFIC
0 MORALE (the negative is balanced out)
-1 POLICE

Although this may seem a far solution as the Gaians, the -1 POLICE can virtually be ignored - if it means that much to you, get the Ascentic Virtues. For FS, run either Cyber (for the +4 PLANET and other favourable effects but watch out for those drones!) or Eudaimonic for the obvious bonuses and this means only the usual -1 MORALE to your conventional units.

Lets compare this to Demo/Green/Wealth

+6 Efficiency!!!
+1 industry
+1 econ
+3 planet
-2 Support
-1 police
-3 morale

This SE setting for diedre is clearly superior to fundy/planned/knowledge in almost every way. Children's creches will make the morale a non-issue (and a bonus when using native units w/ CC) and -2 support is not much of an issue between crawlers and clean reactors. The real kickers are +6 efficiency, +1 econ, +3 planet. These are high powered bonuses that play to diedre's strengths and minimize her weaknesses. Some social engineering choices really dont make sense regardless of the situation.

-Nadexander

[EtheMind]

Your solution was interesting Cybergod ...don't worry though, I'm still going stick with my class associated thinking, and you're the Warlord

But I honestly don't think those choices really play Gaians all that efficiently. What you get from Fundamentalism is negated by Knowledge and Gaian inherent disadvantage. Your inherent efficiency is negated by Planned. You get many advantages sure, but none of them is very dominant...is 'negated' a real english consept?

I might go for Nadexander's choices and try to achieve GAs for +2 Economy, or possibly Knowledge because of that -3 Morale in Wealth. Also if I play Gaians I am going to expand as much as possible and might even want +7 Efficiency for the biggest maps.

[The Commodore]

Looks at thread.

Nods.

Looks back a first post.

Has heart attack.

You...you...you...have the...GAUL, to sujest putting Morgan into FM!?!

Unless you're going for +5 econ, at the expense of everything else, DON"T DARE PUT HIM IN FM! He doesn't need it for +1 econ, he gets that with just Wealth. FM is a economy of pain, unless you're Spartan, and if there's any other way to get +2 econ, use the other way. The -2 morale of wealth isn't so bad: Native life from CC's get bigger morale boons, the lower your SE morale is.

[Misotu]

This is probably heresy, but I don't think I've ever used Demo/Green/X as the Gaians except if I have the Cloning Vats. Otherwise, I really want the growth, thank you very much

You don't care about morale unless you are playing the Gaians as a momentum faction. This is, of course, a perfectly valid option because they can amass a native army in short order given a little luck. But if you play Gaia as a builder, the morale aspect is mostly defensive. Build creches and they will not only deliver the Demo/Planned pop boom, but also cancel all negative morale effects for defensive units.

Heaven

[Blake]

Originally posted by The Commodore
You...you...you...have the...GAUL, to sujest putting Morgan into FM!?!

Actually, I almost always run FM when morgan. A number of reasons:
+X energy per base. This is really great if you have many small bases, if you have for example size 3 bases then going from +1 to +2 econ nets +3 energy (+1 over 3 tiles), if you add another +2 econ then you get something like an extra +4 energy per base square, this is very very worthwhile. Also it is immune to energy restrictions, the +1 energy per tile is lost on a river+forest tile. (early game, that is).

I'm a builder, that means large bases and allies where possible. The additional commerce income from higher econ is yet more cash.

My units dont need to leave my territory.

I limit myself to ~10 bases, benefits from increased effic are quite small.

That said, when I feel the need to bring the fight to the others I usually switch to Green, but I cant see how FM could not be good for Morgan in peacetime, partcullary in the early game when every credit counts.

[EtheMind]

I'm still going stick with my class associated thinking, and you're the Warlord

Wait...I'm the Warlord as well. It must not be hard to get this far ...first time I quoted myself. Can that be interpreted as egosentric?

Anyway...
I would aim for the Economy if I play Morgan. And if I do, that +5 is not all that hard to come up with. You produce that much energy you can easily spare some of it for the psych.
If you play some other builder faction you can always choose FM... or Wealth and achieve GAs. To get +2 Economy, FM is hardly mandatory.
When playing Morgan you really want to limit your base size and in this case that extra energy per base becomes more important. If you play nicely with your neighbours it's worth it for the commerce only.
Do not underestimate the power of the Economy.

[cbn]

A couple of points

1. Regardless of "rank" it is correct that Planet rating does not affect Psi defence. I learned this while advocating IODs as the Cult as the power of the sea only to learn that I did not get 50% modifier when defending. Also learned how vulnerable they are to bombardment but thats another story. The upside is that your trance 3r units are no more vulnerable to the worms under FM than they ever were.


2. I likewise thought that PS was a poor choice until I seriously looked at the Hive. Massive numbers of units and many many bases are the order of the day. You build stuff real fast and support is almost never an issue. What I usually do is have all the early bases kick out 2-3 formers early and get a jump on the terraforming. A base goes every 3 squares and police handle the b drones. Efficiency bites and I have games where all my energy in 8-10 outlying bases is lost but you just kick out the crawlers and use specialists.

3 Morgan and FM??-- Well since he cannot go Planned (and growth tops out early anyway due to hab limits-- its FM, Simple or Green. I understand Commodore's point that once you get to +2 Econ and the extra energy a square, further ECon boosts are not worth the pain that FM causes. To me it depends-- If you are peaceful with lots ot treatries/pacts the added commerce of getting to +4 ECON could be very substantial. Green can also make a fair bit of sense since growth won't be needed and added efficiency reduces losses of that crucial energy.

[EtheMind]

I've learned that PS can be viable choice with many factions if things get really rough. But of course I tend to avoid it as a builder.

I would not sign that support remark though. Hive has a significant advantages, that's true. He gets level 2 tech, Police State & Planned without penalty and the first one without research. And CN is a sure thing if you're playing Hive and don't mess up. But when you build that minimum of 2 formers, 3 defenders in order to keep people in line...well, there goes your support, and more.

In my current SP game as Hive I'm superior in power graphs, but both economy and science are going low. I got many projects, surprisingly many actually. And I'm in war with just about everyone, and currently pushing Free Drones and University with my Impact Roover regiment. I'm lossing 1/2 or 3/4 of industry production to support.


And the reason I would choose FM if playing Morgan is because of that +5 Economy you get when you reach GA. And it's not very hard to achieve it when playing Morgan. +3 Commerce can really make a difference even if you're not in treaty with everyone.

[cbn]

Originally posted by EtheMind

But when you build that minimum of 2 formers, 3 defenders in order to keep people in line...well, there goes your support, and more.

I'm not sure that I understand your point. My early bases get 2-3 formers and 1-2 military early. Sure if If I have 5-6 units out, I may lose a mineral or two to support but another faction would lose an additional 2 minerals with the same units. In the very early game when your base produces a small number of minerals this can be a crucial difference. This allows a lot of terraforming to grow bases faster and pump out those colony pods. The reality is that I do not have a base go beyond size two for a while so a single unit staying at home and policing is all that is needed. The other reality is that these police units are not just stuck at home. If psych allocation, facilities or specialists mean that police is no longer needed, they get an upgrade and join the fray. Having ready units around can be quite handy when a war comes.

[EtheMind]

Well. I have PS, and I like it, in theory. I get to build four free units, neat! I build 2-3 formers and 1-2 units to keep control very early on. It takes 0 to 1 mineral to support, that's nice. Then I start to expand because I got PS, you can't stay as small faction if you play dictatorship, not in any Civ game I've played. I start to get b-drones and my bases grow bigger. In a moment I need 3 units to maintain order and soon I could find use for Police Units too, much because of b-drones...there goes that support, 3 points just to keep order and this is the reality of expanding PSs.

PS is good, if you're good at it. Having three units in garrison makes it easy to defend and early support boost can really make a difference, true.
The problem is that it's very hard to turn your coat in PS. You simply can't afford to build all psych facilities early on, and you need them at Trancend. You're stuck with your Police Units, and for some time. You're a developing dictatorship, much like countries in Africa and in Latin America...of course, PS is still cool

[cbn]

Ah now I understand what you are saying. I even agree . . . somewhat.

Yes the Hive has a tough time gettin money to buy and pay upkeep on facilities. But for the first many many turns my Hive bases build nothing but formers, units and colony pods. A single garisson at home keeps the peace when you get to size two. I'm a big believer in horizontal expansion as the Hive.

The +1 growth and the support bonus with the +1 Industry means that the Hive gets to grow faster than pretty much anyone. Your points are valid for larger bases but who needs larger bases ??

A current MP game gives a sense of my approach. I have 31 bases and about 70 formers. Only two of my bases are bigger than size 7 since I am setting them up as science centers-- they get rec commons and holotheatres. Most of my bases do not have any drone facilities but have 3 police units. A couple of recently captured size 7s are causing drone problems and lose ALL their energy to innefficiency . . . . no problem-- 4 workers become specialists and you end up with a base that contributes a little to the economy.


Once a base has a crawler or two in the field I do not find drone control to be any problem at all. Specialists rule the day. . . Once the base is size 5-- it might get 5 scientists.


The limitation to PS in my mind is that Bio-engineering allows others to get Clean units and negate the advantage somewhat. I still find it a huge advantage to have a whole bunch of units (with 31 bases it would be 124 units) that do not need to be upgraded.


Overall though I do agree that the advantage of PS is most prevalent early. The support/police combo allows a player to focus on building formers and crawlers without drone or support worries. The IDEA is that should translate into more, better developed bases to attempt to negate the economy minus and the inability/difficulty to pop boom.

Understand me here . . . I rarely use PS for anyone but the Hive (usually in Demo) but for the Hive I have found it addictive.

[EtheMind]

I'm a big believer in horizontal expansion as the Hive.

Welcome to the club. Hive's a great faction when you know how to play it. But as I pointed out in my thread "Police State, the most oppressed goverment in SMAC"(you'll find it here...somewhere) PS isn't such a bargain in latter game. And that's just not fair.

You seem to know how to play Hive...better than me
And Hive is just about the only faction who really benefits from PS...and that's just not fair

[cbn]

I seem to recall that Police State thread. I agree that Police Stae can be painful later since higher level efficiency is harder to attain. More than most the Hive seem to cry out for crawlers and specialists. Before starting with the Hive I had generally always had +2 efficiency or more in my games-- Now with the Hive the 0 efficiency means NO energy production-- My solution is to crawl stuff and get the base big enough to use specialists. OR if I want higher efficiency to use a higher Labs allocation I have tinkered with Simple / Green/ Knowledge but that is REAL rare. Thereality is that usually when you are used to PS for Drone control its tough to get off of it -- ie PS + Ascetic Virtues means that 3 police units can quell 9 drones--

. . . . Oh and I never claim to play better or have a better strat than anyone- EVERY time I hear another persons ideas I learn a lot. Sometimes I like to argue some of the points about the game since every time I do, I hear more about different perspectives.

[EtheMind]

No, that was me who claimed that...

I'm just starting to get used to specialists. I rarely use them if I'm a builder since you can usually process a lot of science and economy with little energy because of all facilities and projects. But I am beginning to understand the importance of this strategy in case of high inefficiency. I really have to try it in my current game with Hive, when I have time to continue it...in few months

SMAX does add little more fairness when using PS, because of Brood pits. This makes PS very viable choice for Cult after they get that...tech which you need to build BPs. And since for Police centered factions have hard time getting Ascetic Virtues, especially in MP games, I'd guess, and Thought Control is far away, and even if you get it you loose that important support bonus, unless you have CV.
In any case it's pretty hard for control freeks to run Thought Control, even in late game, because of their shortage of infrastructure and cost efficient cities.

[DilithiumDad]

Gaians: I end up staying in Planned for most of the game, with some Green periods when I have units trolling the fungus or popping sea pods. When the fungus is all trolled (virgin fungus yileds more worms) and all the pods are popped it's back to Planned. Green also helps in maintaining Golden Ages when going for Wealth + GA to get +2 economy.

Morgan: I use FM a lot with Morgan, especially for population growth. After expansion and once your bases are size 4 and over, then Green starts to look better. Often Green nets you more economy and labs than FM, let alone the +2 planet advantages.

Hive: I used to leave it locked to PS-Planned-Wealth until I got my clock cleaned in Wealth in multiplayer. Wealth is very dangerous in multiplayer, and the Hive is the only faction that can tolerate the -2 industry penalty of Power.

PK: Rather than having a set SE setting for this faction, I prefer to alternate between Planned and FM with either Wealth or Knowledge. I pop boom on Planned, then switch to FM and reap all the energy from the extra worked tiles. I alternate between FM and Planned in about 5-year cycles.