Overbalanced SPs

[death_head]

That's a bit early, doncha think? It negates the Pirates early sea advantage...

[Ned]

Perhaps, but again, the units are very weak.

I just like to report that the move of Genejacks to earlier in the game may be the final straw! I am currently playing a game that is a real struggle. I am way ahead on the power meter, but have no treaties, let alone pact mates. Everyone else is allied against me and are just about equal in tech. The Drones just got the Cloning Vats. I don't even have the tech yet. The AI's mineral and lab production is just as good as mine.

I may win, but it is not certain. The game with the pacifist, build, terraforming restrictions tweaks, and the move of Genejack earlier is real tough.

Ned

[LooseWasp]

I used to think the HSA was too powerful, but after playing a few games where it went to other factions I've changed my mind.

The TM is the only SP that seems overbalancing to me...better if it reduced the number of drones/city by 2 or 3 rather than prevent them from rioting entirely.

The SPs add another layer (in addition to social engineering choices and the set advantages and disadvantages of each faction) in making the factions be different from each other. In the CIV games, the different players are identical, except for the advantages given for whatever Wonders may have been built. I think this is one of the main reasons for having them in the game.

My preference would be for more SPs, and preferably ones that do *not* give an improvement to every base. Since (once the tech has been discovered) anyone can build a Quantum Widget Hangar, this type of SP doesn't do much to differentiate the factions.

In particular I dislike the CBA. The Aerospace Complex (like the Children's Creche) gives a lot of advantages, both offensive and defensive. The discovery of Air Power is a major turning point in the game, and the existance of an AC in a base indicates that that base has been fitted for air power and entered the world of modern warfare. To be able to get it automatically seems unfair.

I've never considered the Empath Guild to be at all important as a SP. I usually will only build it when there is no other project available.

Ideas I've had for additional projects:

The Expeditious Traveller: allows units to travel 4 squares on roads rather than 3.

The Majestic Forest: Allows one more mineral to be produced from forest squares.

Energy Extractor: allows one more energy to be produced from fungus squares.

Psionic Damper: when built in a base, that base is immune from all psionic combat (offensive and defensive).

Emergency Supply: Halves the rate of starvation, i.e. when a city has a negative nutrient production, that number is halved.

Air Cargo Supply Company: Allows needlejet transport units to carry 4 rather than 1 unit; increases needlejet units' movement rate by 2.

[death_head]

I like the psionic dampener, but what would happen to the worms?

[Ned]

That Psionic dampener is interesting. In all my most recent games, I have really fallen in love with the Great Green War Machine strategy: Get the Nural Amplifier, the Pholus Mutagen and later the Dream Twister to make your Demon Boils invincible then dominate the seas with Sealurks and the air and Ground with Locusts. So the Psionic dampener would be an extremely powerful SP.

BTW, the Nural Amplifier is an extremely powerful SP. My Great and Demon Boil Sealurk navy cannot be beaten, ship to lurk, by any ship in the hands of the enemy - they can usually withstand two or more successive attacks. There have been long discussions here on the best combination of naval armor and weapons. However, no ship with any combination of weapons/armor compares to the Demon Boil Sealurk with the Nural Amplifier. (And Blake, no the AI has not figured out to shell the Sealurk first before it attacks. So you put your navy on auto to find the Sealurks, and the next thing that happens is the AI attackes the lurk and your ship goes pop!)

[Hoek]

The craziest one is definitely the cloning vats...that is instant victory if you can provide the infastructure to support it.

[WhiteElephants]

My thoughts on the projects is that any which give free facilities are very strong indeed. Consider that you have 12 bases and you build the Command Nexus giving you a command center in every base that cost around 40 minerals each (?) you've just made 180 minerals since the Command Nexus costs 300 minerals on top of the energy in maintenance you save each turn. Now consider the Cloud Base Academy, Maritime Control Center, The Cyborg Factory, the Citizens Defense Force, and the one that gives you holo theatres for each network node and the numbers and uses for each keep growing.

All that aside the ones I find most troubling are the Cloud Base Academy, the one that gives you free holo theatres for each network node, the Empath Guild, and the Hunter-Seeker Alogrythm.

The Cloud Base Academy because, post airpower, Aerospace Complexes are an integral part of any successful defense and important to a quality offense. The thing is you get both from this when you take an enemys base. Not to mention the ability to build satellites and reap the benefits of satellites.

The free holo theatres because of the cost of a holo theatre is 3 energy a turn and because in order to achieve a decent pop boom the holo theatre is critical. On top of that the faction specific benefits the Univeristy gains from this project is simply too great for a University player to pass up.

The Empath Guild not so much for the extra votes, but because infiltration is an important aspect of a successful offense and strong probe defense should be an important part of a successful defense. You throw this project and the governership into the mix and your looking at a potential of two of your adversaries having "free" infiltratioin on you. I'm not fond of that benefit for the governor either.

The Hunter-Seeker for the exact opposite reasons of the Empath Guild. I think a rock solid probe defense, particularly in SMAC, is just going too far.

Beyond these projects I haven't put a lot of thought into which are strong and which aren't as my games haven't gone too much farther than this. Though I find little use for the Psi enhancing facilities like the Neural Amp and Dream Twister as they're both easily countered by a simple 1-1-1 trance scout or empath scout. I also only find the Cloning Vats useful for factions like the Hive, and Morgan who can't pop boom in SMAC, other than that anyone can boom which, to me, is the main benefit of the project.

[death_head]

I think that players should have the option to not submit to the planetary council. They wouldn't get a vote, and they wouldn't receive the benefits/penalties of the council. e.g., no infiltration from the governor, but no 500 credits if they salvage the core.

[Blake]

The cloning vats also have the benefit of nullifying negative effects for Power and Thought Control. This means for factions running Power it also has the effect of +2 industry, for those running TC +3 support. +2 industry is hardly insignificant, although support problems are easily nullified by clean reactors. But considering power alone - usually the +2 support from power is neutralized by the -2 industry, but with the CV, if you also run Police State (or build the +2 support SP) then suddenly you have +4 support AND massive bases, with no industry penalty, this reads hordes of high quality military units, with no slot wasted on clean.

Generally the most unbalanced SP's are the ones which incur both a military and economic benefit, usually the smaller benefit is the one which is just enough for the SP to be classified "Overpowered" rather than just powerful, for the CV it is the impunity, power. (Possibly I could accept it if it was just a simple pop-boom). CBA, the orbital operations aspect, if the CBA gave +1 air morale, +2 air movement benefit then it would be acceptable, and somewhat more logical (a pilot training facility which makes it easier to get elite pilots).

I suppose the empath guild also has a economic (easier to get gov) and military (free infiltration) benefit, although the military benefit counts twice, because it is likely you'll prevent another player from getting free infiltration via Gov, personally I don't consider the guild overpowered, although that could be due to a lack of MP experience.

[Black Sunrise]

In one of my games I'm in as we speak, one player got the Cloning Vats, Cloudbase Acadamy and started taking off in pop (a couple sky hydroponics farms later), and took the presidency from me.
I decided that those two with the presidency was WAY too destabilizing, so launched a first strike.
Three years later, 1/3 of the world population has died (so far! still falling!), the seas will rise AT LEAST 1266 meters (probably much more), I am seeing 20 or so outbreaks of locusts per turn, and we have had a volcano erupt.
It's probably going to get much much worse.

I'd say the most destabilizing thing is: whatever makes someone nervous.
Indra

[gwillybj]

re: SP maintenance cost

Originally posted by Velociryx
An interesting notion:
Does anybody know if we can edit a project to make it carry a negative upkeep? That might be another way to address the TM….force the player building it to sacrifice energy every turn….::fiendish grin:: yes….that could create as many problems for the player as it solves. I like it! Ali, whatcha think? If it’s doable, would a hefty negative upkeep (we’re talking late game here, and the ability to run market and fight a war, so let’s say….200? 250? Credits per turn?) If you ante up, all is well. Your telepaths keep the drones at bay for you for another year. If you run out of money….well, the project still works, but you suffer the same effects you would if you had rioting drones….random facilities will be sold (destroyed) in order to give you the needed cash.
-=Vel=-

I haven't seen a reply to this question, but I don't see why it couldn't be done, since the SPs are listed in the base's infrastructure as if they were Facilities, the only apparent difference being only one of each can be built on the planet.

; Base Facilities
; Name, Cost, Maint, Preq, Free, Effect

An example of a good example:
Energy Bank, 8, 1, IndEcon, QuanMac, Economy Bonus
You get a better economy for building the bank, but it costs you to keep it running -- Accountants don't come cheap.

The Weather Paradigm, 20, 0, Ecology, Disable, Terraform Rate +50%, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1,
Change this to...
The Weather Paradigm, 20, 10, Ecology, Disable, Terraform Rate +50%, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1,
...and you get the faster terraforming, but pay every year for the wear and tear on the machinery (and the wages for a 3rd shift of workers ).

[Ned]

Gw, Have you tried it? Does it work? Ned

[gwillybj]

note to self: test-before-you-post

Gw, Have you tried it? Does it work? Ned

Between being sick and changing jobs and life in general ,
Yes, I finally tried it , and
No, it doesn't work .
(I tested it with the Merchant Exchange, since it occurs early enough and has no Facility associated with it. The SP was listed as usual in Base Operations [F4], but no cost was listed in Energy Banks [F3], and there was no unaccounted deduction.)

Ned: Thank you for the friendly reminder to "test-before-I-post" .

[The diplomat]

Maybe it was a bug in the game, but when I built the Telepathic Matrix, it did not eliminate the drones. The TP just eliminates riots from drones, but you still get the drones. So, a city can have loads of drones and have no riot. Of course the drones do not produce any ressources which is a really bad thing. Since it does not eliminate drones, I don't think it is as overpowerful as people say, especially since it does come so late in the game.

The SP I think is trully too powerful is the Cloning Vats. The pop boom makes things way too good, especially if you are trying to become Gov or Supreme Leader.

[Master Marcus]

The % of POP BOOM is one of the mostUNBALANCING elements of the game, the CV is only the "construct" for you can pop boom through social engineering+children's creche. The CV should have given +2 growth instead. ( This was much discussed a year ago ).

The CA is too POWERFUL , I agree, but we must admit: aerospace complexes are....powerful!

The TM is completely IRRELEVENT in a SP game: too late at the end, you already dominate the map.

The Manifold Harmonics are Exceedingly POWERFUL , but again too late at the end.

In my book, the most perfectly balanced SP is the PEG, at a reasonable stage of a game where you can save the costly Energy banks for something else.