Overbalanced SPs

[Alinestra Covelia]

I stumbled across somebody's proposal for a big mod to the game, and saw that they were limiting some of the SPs on the grounds of their being overpowered.

Some SPs I saw up for the chop were: Empath Guild, Cloning Vats, and Cloudbase Academy.

However, ever since I started to play the game in single player, through every single level of difficulty, the one SP I thought was likely to be way overbalancing was the Telepathic Matrix.

In fact, the irony is that it usually comes so late that it's not built until late-game, by which time a clear victor is usually visible if not actual.

Is there some fine print that I have missed? Or does everybody else pretty much agree that the TM is a game-breaker of an SP?

[Kirnwaffen]

Personally, I've only found the TM to be useful if I'm in a late game war (Conventional, anyway) when I'm capturing bases too far away to produce energy. Other than that, by the time it comes, it's too late to matter because I'm producing more than enough energy to control my drones and frequently have excess workers to turn into specialists as well.

[Tokamak]

Ditto.

The TM is useless to people who take the "Builder" stance, since by now they solved their Drone problems ages ago. A more warlike "momentum" player would find it useful, but if a momentum player hasn't ended the game by the time Eudaimonia comes out, he's already lost the game.

[Ned]

I suppose allowing one to build the Matrix on researching the Eudaimonia indicates the designers wanted to allow one to use either Eudaimonia or FM interchangeably. Both allow one to stay in +2 economy, but Eudaimonia adds a -2 morale factor. Since the Matrix suppresses drones, one can us FM and a large military simultaneously. It also permits the simultaneous use of Thought Control which makes that military elite, or Cybernetic, which somewhat cancels FM's -3 planet so that one can continue a Green War Machine strategy. So I can see why you believe the Matrix is overpowered.

However, I will typically use Eudaimonia and Power. Power cancels the negative morale, making Eudaimonia more attractive than FM/Thought Control due to its +2 industry, IMHO. With this SE setting, I typically have no drone problems at all, making the Matrix irrelevant.

What are your thoughts?

BTW, why was the Empath Guild chopped? This is the only way the Alien factions can get infiltrator information on other factions just like the Planetary Governor.

And why is the Cloudbased Academy on the list and not the Maritime Control Center? Both add +2 movements and provide the corresponding base facility for increased morale. I find the increased ship movement more important.

Now suppose the Command Nexus also added one movement point to gravel agitators! Now that would be a very desired SP!

Ned

[Blake]

In response to the original post:

The disbalance of the CBA, CV is not so much due to how powerfull they are, but due to the time you get them, basically they are too early in the tech tree and too cheap. The TM well... by the time you have TM you should have transcends, and these provide all the drone control you'll ever need (that's how I see it).

Ned:
First:
+2 Movement, Okay, I cant disagree that the +2 ship movement from the MCC is better than the +2 aircraft movement from CBA - but in many cases you can do without ships altogether. While aircraft are usfull under any conditions.


The other benefit: Compare the function of an Aerospace Complex with that of a naval yard.
NY: +100% defense vs ships, this is largely moot because coastal bases cant easily be attacked by ships, and active defense is quite effective vs ships, in contrast with
AC: +100% vs aircraft, passive defense is the only defense against aircraft, and land and sea bases are equally vunerable, this makes the +100% defense from the AC somewhat more valuable.
NY: +2 ship morale (including probe foils)
AC: +2 aircraft morale. Pretty much equal.
NY: Cost 8, AC: Cost 8. They are equal in that regard too.
Now, that sums up the bonuses from a NY, but the AC has several additional benefits.

Prevents airdrops. This is important.
Allows full use of satellites, including the ability to launch. Again a good thing.
Repairs aircraft: Well, the NY repairs ships, but usually ship battles tend to be won by a good margin, or not at all (I rarely seem to repair ships, other than by taking bases with them), while aircraft (particullary choppers) often get sent on near-suicide missions, then sent back to repair.

On the offense (capturing bases):
An instant NY is of dubious importance, the only real benefits being +100% ship defense, and quick repairs (both of which I feel are of dubious value).
An instant AC on the otherhand provides the +100% defense against aircraft counter-attacks. It also prevents airdrops, prehaps reducing the ability of the enemy to do ZoC tricks, or cut off your re-inforcments. Of less importance it allows immediate full resources from orbitals. Finally it provides a very usfull quick-repair pad, which keeps the invasion humming along nicely.

So, the short of it is the AC is such a usfull facility, for the economy, defense and offense that getting free ones is so good to be almost cheating. And the CBA does exactly that.

The only downside of the CBA is how incredibly vunerable your empire becomes should a planetbuster hit the CBA base, opening your entire empire to a brutal chop'n'drop strategy. Taking out the CBA base however would be much easier said than done. (the +2 movement alone would make getting close enough a headache).

[Ned]

Blake, Thanks for the reply. I now remember my reaction to first learning that SMACX had the CBA: Shock!

[Earwicker]

Originally posted by Blake
Repairs aircraft: Well, the NY repairs ships, but usually ship battles tend to be won by a good margin, or not at all (I rarely seem to repair ships, other than by taking bases with them), while aircraft (particullary choppers) often get sent on near-suicide missions, then sent back to repair.

Besides which, the damaged victor in a sea battle loses many movement points, unlike damaged aircraft. Unless the ship was already inside a base, it will probably get knocked off at the end of your turn. So much for repair . . .

I agree that the CBA is overpowered, comes too early, and greatly diminishes the importance of the Space Elevator (which anyway comes too late).

The HSA is slightly imbalancing. The addition of Algorithmic Enhancements was a step in the right direction to limit its power. However ,I think the Nethack should come at the same time or only slightly after HSA. They are like yin-yang SP's and proximity in the tech charts would make it likelier that different factions would have them, making for very interesting possibilities.

[Velociryx]

Hmmm…..interesting thread about the telepathic matrix. I had not thought it overpowered, mostly because of how late it comes in the game. However, it was one of the projects I was planning to move closer, and by making it available somewhat earlier, despite the fact that it will be doubled in price, it’s true that it may well be overpowered.

Perhaps then, this particular project should fall under the category of those projects providing free facilities (which would quadruple its total cost….this, coupled with the fact that crawlers are gone from the game, would mean that whomever builds it truly deserves the vast rewards it brings, as it would require a titanic commitment of resources.

Notes on the Empath Guild: I plan to remove it from the mod for a number of game balance reasons, the most important of which is the free infiltration of all factions.

With good probe defense, you can delay and possibly outright prevent another faction from gaining infiltration data on you, which players almost universally regard as being highly important. The only defense against the EG is to beat your opponent to it (which forces a beeline on players), or to destroy the base it’s built in (which forces a specific play style on players). And, as if free infiltration of all factions wasn’t enough, the Guild doubles your votes at the council table….OUCH! Given that it comes pretty early in the game and provides two brutally powerful abilities, I decided to nix it.

A secondary consideration was the fact that one of the Splinter Factions (Honshu) has his votes halved at council. If he somehow gains the Empath Guild, he suddenly gets normal votes. Odds are good that one of the other factions (my money would be on Ashaandi or “Mother” Washington) would wind up with the governorship, and now you’ve got two factions with infiltration data on you that you can do little about in the short run. UGH.

Anyway, sorry for that longer-than-I-expected ramble….that’s kinna the route my brain took when I decided the EG needed to head for the recycling tanks….

-=Vel=-

Late addition: Just saw Earwicker's notes about the Nethack terminus! That's *exactly* what I was thinking....and too, it goes a LONG ways in balancing out the HSA....one thing that'd be cool is if we put the Nethack along an entirely different branch of the tree....that way, it'd be almost impossible for one player to grab them both.

-V.

[Ned]

Vel, Swap Clinical Immortality with the Empath Guild. Both increase votes. The CI also acts like a second HGP. Ned

[Alinestra Covelia]

Maybe it's just my style of play, but the TM does something that no other base facility does, and it does it for EACH CITY you own. So restrictions like the University's drone problem simply never surface.

Of course, I agree that the late occurrence of this SP is a saving grace, but that's still no excuse for how powerful it is.

I'm beginning to tend towards favoring SPs which just give faction-wide facilities, like the Citizen's Defence Force and the Command Nexus. That means that the factions who didn't manage to build these can still get an equivalent effect, but only through expending more minerals and possibly paying more energy per turn.

[Velociryx]

An interesting notion:
Does anybody know if we can edit a project to make it carry a negative upkeep? That might be another way to address the TM….force the player building it to sacrifice energy every turn….::fiendish grin:: yes….that could create as many problems for the player as it solves. I like it! Ali, whatcha think? If it’s doable, would a hefty negative upkeep (we’re talking late game here, and the ability to run market and fight a war, so let’s say….200? 250? Credits per turn?) If you ante up, all is well. Your telepaths keep the drones at bay for you for another year. If you run out of money….well, the project still works, but you suffer the same effects you would if you had rioting drones….random facilities will be sold (destroyed) in order to give you the needed cash.

And by the way, I agree with you….in my mind, the “safest” facilities are those that provide free facilities, because every faction can get those benefits…some just pay more than others, and that’s cool. I DO think that, because those projects have sweeping, empire-wide effects, the prices should be radically higher than, say….a project that doubles economic output at a single base. That’s why, in the Mod I’m proposing, those projects got such a dramatic cost increase.

-=Vel=-

[Alinestra Covelia]

That's an idea I tried out for Civ2FW once. I was representing the modern day world, and had a Chinese civilization who could build a wonder called "Tibetan Reunity". This would act as the Eiffel Tower.

However, I tried to put an upkeep cost of 5 per turn for this Wonder once built, to reflect that Tibet autonomous region still requires continual investment by the Chinese central government. And of course, once you build the Wonder you can't get rid of it, just like in diplomacy you can't go back on a show of generosity without fearful repercussions.

Sadly, the Wonder remained costless once built. So Civ2FW didn't allow that sort of tinkering.

But yes, it would make the SPs that DIDN'T act like normal buildable stuff more of a liability. Say if you saddle the big ones with a heavy cost, and if the cost can't be met, the SP is disbanded at no refund, and any other faction with the appropriate tech can now build the SP!

Mwuhahahahahaha! *Dr Evil twitchpinky*

[moomin]

I think any drone contol SPs before empaths are
overpowered... but then I mostly play Zak.

Something I've found that really improves single
play is to remove sea colony pods from the game.
The AI can no longer spend its resources toward
littering the map with size-2 sea bases and has
to make the most of their land bases - they tend
to build those up to respectable levels. Combine
this with pre-made maps with "good" sized
continents with land bridges beteen them and
heavy pre-forrestation and I've found the single
game to be quite enjoyable at Transcend.

[Earwicker]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper

Something I've found that really improves single
play is to remove sea colony pods from the game.
The AI can no longer spend its resources toward
littering the map with size-2 sea bases and has
to make the most of their land bases - they tend
to build those up to respectable levels.

I have often seen where Domai and Aki-Zeta have created large and fairly-productive sea bases, particularly when they are pacted with each other. Keeping idiot Yang, Santiago, and Miriam from them would be a godsend.

While we're moving things around, any thoughts on psi-gates? I almost never build them because they come about when there is orbital insertion. If earlier, however, they would function like Civ2 airports and could be quite useful. The AI might even use them effectively . . .

[Ned]

Psi gates are enormously useful when playing on really big maps. They get air and seapower across the map quite efficiently. There really is no substitute for a WAVE STRING copter.

The AI knows how to use the Gates. Once, I set a copter on automatic. The AI transported to a Gate across the map. Then is sought out and destroyed an enemy ship I had no clue was even there.

Again, Gates are best used in getting Choppers to the scene of the action. Imagine each of your bases producing a chopper each turn and transporting it to the immediate vicinty of the war through a gate you have rush built on a base you have just taken from the enemy. This is almost unfair, isn't it?

IIRC, Airports in CIV could receive only one unit at a time. Not so in SMACX.

Right now, I have no opinion on moving them up significantly due to their extreme power. However, I do agree that Orbital Insertion and the Gates should be more widely separated in time. Perhaps introduce Gates with Centauri PSI.

As to SeaLurks, I simply moved them to Progenitor Psyc. You get them early, but the early units are very weak. Good only for exploring and pod popping, not for military assaults.

Ned