Ideas for a potential "Splinter MOD"

[Vultur]

Originally posted by Velociryx
As a baseline, every faction starts with the following negatives:
-2 Growth (high death rate on a hostile alien world)
-2 Research (limited supplies, no infrastructure, most of the “research” done is by observation)
-2 Support (no infrastructure, no industry…difficult to support much of anything)
-1 Industry (some basic tools salvaged from unity, but the starting “industry” is primitive, at best)

I'm working on some changes in alphax.txt and I'm not too far from an interesting result.
The main problem in SP is that when you have aquired a certain tech level the AIs stop to be a serius problem (For me this level is the 7th - United Field Theory, Probability Mechanics...-), so a great part of facilities, chassis, unit's abilities or SPs become useless (Just few examples: do you use PSI gates? Do you build the Bulk Matter Transmitter? Do you use units with blink displacer?)
Your idea of start penalties is good, and it can be considered changing the SE settings Frontier/Simple/Survival
Frontier: -2 EFFIC -2 SUPPORT few organization, few resources
Simple: -1 ECONOMY -1 INDUSTRY absence of markets and infrastructures
Survival: -1 MORAL -1 RESEARCH far from Earth, in an ostile world you want fight or know?
Obviusly having the possibility (Techs) it's possible swichting from this SE to others.
In total each faction at the beginning of game (besides its original modifiers)
-2 EFFIC
-2 SUPPORT
-1 ECONOMY
-1 INDUSTRY
-1 MORAL
-1 RESEARCH
sounds a pretty tough landing!

I'm waiting your comments for my idea

-Vultur

PS
I've not gived -1/-2 PLANET (few comprehension of an alien environment) because Gaians and Cult would be too penalized

[Avenoct]

Vultur,

Nice clean idea to change the starting conditions! Much easier than changing each faction correspondingly.

SE boons from tech:

As far as I can tell from my own research and trolling through the old old creation threads (biblical even?), it's not possible to add say +1 industry when gaining a tech. You certainly can change which techs grant which SE choices, and you can change the SE choices, so I had an idea..

Seeing as how the fourth SE line is Future Society, and as such only comes about late game, why not cannibalize those techs and rename the whole line..instead of future society it could be Stablizing Effects or Chiron's Sympathy (for those poor buggers on your tough planet).

This is two birds with one stone as you need a few more user tech slots, especially for Smax (Smax only has two available I hear?). Now you have 3 or 4 free techslots, depending on what you want to do with the other things the tech would have granted...take for instance..

Thought Control. Tech is 'The Will to Power' to get this. Would have led to 'Eudamonia' and 'Secrets of Creation', but since you are moving it back down the tech tree, this step is (well you'd have to change the prerequisites for them..) bypassed.
Secondly, 'The Will to Power' grants the ability to build the Dream Twister SP. [Edit#3!] Simply make the Dream Twister prerequisite another tech and there you go!

Editing: I realized that this would be hard to implement as you can only choose one option on the SE screen, but, it's still possible if your 'Penalty Lifting' techs come in a linear order. If your first penalty lifted is 'Research' than the first SE slot would have only 'Research +1'...the second, after the second penalty is lifted would be 'Research +1, Support, +1', and so on, building up to all penalties lifted.

-Smack

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Smack
. . . . Oddly enough, in the main program some of the projects are listed in order, but not a full list, not that I'm even Thinking about trying to recompile the main app.

(Apologies in advance to those for whom this is obvious)
You wouldn't have to recompile the program to change it. If you are careful, you can replace items in the exe. Clear text is an easy place to start, for example changing 'Human' to 'Alien' and see if it uses it. The hard part is figuring out what you are looking at in the file; the good part is that anything that is hardwired in the code can be changed (to something the same type and size) if you can find it. If it has findable hardwired tables, they could be useful things to work with.

[Velociryx]

Vultur, I LOVE the idea of starting the “frontier” and “simple” SE table settings off with those horrendous minuses! In my mind, it makes for a much more realistic game, and forces a hard look at what you want to do in terms of making your way up the tech tree.

I think I’ll structure it thusly for my mod:
Frontier: -2 Growth, -1 Industry
Simple: -2 Research, -2 Support

What makes this particular allocation of negatives intriguing is that it really forces you to consider carefully your initial SE changes. Running Frontier Green would net you a staggering –4 Growth! OUCH! Likewise, running Dem/Simple would give out the crushing penalty of –4 support, and with no clean reactors, that’d pretty much paralyze your empire. In this mod then, SE choices will have to be carefully considered (as it should be!). The other interesting aspect here, is that the “social value” of survival still carries no negative, meaning that altering your values (and later, future society choices) can later undo the disadvantages of running frontier/simple.

Over the weekend, I solidified what I really want to do with this mod, and the short answer to the question is that I want to give the game a more realistic feel, thus the initial negatives, slower tech and inherent support problems.

In the same breath though, I also want to take the current "winningest strategies" and throw them out the window, forcing players to come up with entirely new ways of thinking to excel. Thus...no nerve gas renders it much harder to rush in the early game (and I'm thinking about upping the sensor bonus, or perhaps inherent base defense....not sure yet), and the hobbling of the mighty Chopper, which leaves only one unbalancing unit to deal with….the innocuous Supply Crawler.

From a Player’s standpoint, the unit is a dream, but from a game designer’s standpoint, there are so many things wrong with it “as is” that is makes me shiver! It’s cheap, “clean” and entirely abusable, and only radical changes will correct the problem, so here are some of the ideas in my head:

1) Eliminate the thing entirely! This would have a profound effect on the game, forcing players to look to Orbital solutions to resource problems. Trouble is, orbitals come waaaay late in the game—especially under the conditions I’m proposing. Conclusion – This might be a little too harsh.

2) Double their baseline cost. Not a bad solution, because the higher initial cost means a longer “payoff” period

3) Leave the price alone, but require the player to support the unit. Also an interesting solution, especially in light of the early game support hit. This makes it much more difficult to use crawlers in the early game, as fully half of the benefit of crawling is eaten up in support costs.

Having read Tokamak and Smack’s recent comments on modifying the Alpha.txt file, I find my mind fairly bursting with possibilities. I’m not sure what I’ll do with the information, exactly, but I’ve got some intriguing ideas about how to make the Splinter Factions a good deal more exciting (to give a hint of some of the stuff I’m thinking about – giving Ashaandi’s starting two Indie units (named “Sand” and “Angel” perhaps?) Blink ability. Yeah, they’re only scout patrols, but suddenly, they’re extremely VALUABLE scout patrols if they can be kept alive till the mid game!

Good stuff in the recent Mod-development thread. Feels like a design renaissance all of a sudden….cool!

-=Vel=-

[Vultur]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Vultur, I LOVE the idea of starting the “frontier” and “simple” SE table settings off with those horrendous minuses! In my mind, it makes for a much more realistic game, and forces a hard look at what you want to do in terms of making your way up the tech tree.
-=Vel=-

I'm honoured of your consideration, and I want to add my personal ideas on some change in alphax.txt.

I've noticed that there are common consideration in all threads that discuss the game balancement:

• [1]The forests are overpowered (clean & cleaning, self reproducing...)
  [2]Copters are overpowered (multiple attack possibility...)
  [3]CBA is overpowering (why not the MCC or the CN or the CF?)
  [4]Sea units/bases are underpowered(difficult to build, control, defend...)

At this ideas I add my personal observations:

• [1]In SMACX 3 on 4 secret techs are at the end of game who has a small tech advantage can discover 4 tech in one turn or 6 techs in 9 turns (extimating 1 tech each 3 turns)
  [2]Fusion Power is at the 6th tech level while Quantum power is at the 11th and Singularity Mechanics at the 12th -a big gap first and an inexistent one later-
  [3]The AI always choose MORAL (I don't konw why but if AI is in war -praticaly ever- choose Fund/Planned/Power)
  [4]The AI built an huge army (I've noticed that Usurpers love the Conv Missiles, Yang the infantry) and doesn't use it! (I'm playing the Zsozso's Ultimate Builder Challenge and my only problem is the slow tech rate!)
  [5]If you don't use PB Planet's lifeforms are only a way to make more cash (also if you use PB and you have the right units!)

I'm trying to make the game more balanced starting from the units (the simplest thing), but I want something more. I'm considering some drastic changes in tech tree, but I've few ideas for what to start: I've though to divide the TT in 4 big super tech levels each divided in 4 normal tech level: each one will contain the techs that could be discoved with the same reactor type (only certain energy level could permit certain applications).
But my idea is all here.

Obviusly if you are any suggestions or comments please post here

-V

[Tokamak]

More apha.txt goodness...

It is possible to create an isolated pocket on the the tech tree. This tech works just fine, but is not reachable from any point on the main tree. This allows you to split the tree into two separate entities. The possibilites are enormous. I won't go into detail here, because this is really a creation thing, but let me just say that the technique isn't truley original. A similiar trick was discovered by the Civ2 people ages ago. I just now thought of applying it to SMAC.

Now, for the relevent part By creating an isolated tech, you can give the AI this tech with either the scenario editor or the faction.txt. Move the prereq for the 'forbidden' clean reactors to here. Now, the AI starts with support-less units at the beginning of the game, but the player still can't get them. If you also provide a 'FREEABIL, 16' clause in the faction.txt, the AI will have to make clean units, even if it doesn't want too!

The only fly in ointment is probe teams. The special AI tech can still be stolen. D'oh! The only real solution is to trust the players to play fair and not use the reactors. Thee is also the potential problem of an AI unit being captured and reverse engineered, but I don't think that that would work. Remember, the unit doesn't 'really' have a clean reactor, only its faction affiliation gives it to him. once ownership is transfered, I expect the clean reactor to vanish.

[Avenoct]

Darn it Toka! This time I thought I was the first to discover that possibility!

True Tech 'Branches' wouldn't lead to anything, think about how a tree appears

The current tech tree is really a tech 'root', leading to the surface, transcendence. All the filaments are either short dead-ends, or lead to the surface.

Couple notes:

1. You can also simply grant the factions you want a tech inaccessable to the other factions entirely! The tech could 'lead' to clean reactors, or any custom tech you so desire..you could even isolate certain SP's unit's, chassis, to certain factions in this way.

2. Examining SNAC, and in my own thinking, the 'steal-tech' option should be disabled in the alphatext for ANY of these mods..it's easy to do, and supports a more difficult environment nicely.

3. Retro-engineering via the Design Workshop could simply be disallowed voluntarily. You could still build a cookie-cutter of the captured unit, but not use clean for other units

4. Designers remember: FREEABIL is a SMAX only faction attribute. No le funciona in SMAC. But you can use a custom tech for a similar effect.

-Smack

[curtadams]

Supply crawlers

Velo, killing the supply crawler is essential if you want that late game to be interesting. Supply crawlers permit rapid exponential growth with essentially no limits and the AI canÕt use them at all. Unless you have intensely engineered startups (e.g. challenges that strand players on tiny pieces of turf between nasty neighbors, etc.), within 50 years of crawlers the game is over.

If your concern is that the startup is too tough sans crawlers, make the startup easier. The start of the game is relatively OK Ð the AI falls behind once the human has crawlers or pop booms. Well, then thereÕs ICS, but thatÕs a different problem.

[MattyBoy]

Vel suggested at one stage:
"Industrial Automation – Confers a +1 Industry bonus as soon as you research the tech "

To me it seems wrong to add to the benefits confered by IA, as I find that it is already over-powered. I usually play Blind Research, so I have to wait for a variable number of advances before IA arrives. If I suffer a long wait, I will have already prepared to boom after Hab Complexes.

As a result, when it does arrive, IA brings 4 things that I badly want:
Supply Crawler, Hab Complex, Planetary Transit System, Wealth

To cut to the chase, I would suggest that some of the advantages that this tech brings should be spread to the weaker techs. I would love to see a game where I had to think carefully on the question "Should I research towards IA or would I prefer a different tech?".


At the moment, the challenge posed by an SP game usually ends upon discovery of IA. I guess that spreading IA's advantages across multiple techs would only postpone this problem. Hence, it is still essential to reduce the effectiveness of crawlers (support cost is a nice idea, perhaps disbanding at full cost could be switched off too?).

[NorthSwordsman]

Originally posted by Velociryx

I dunno….considering that there’s no relatively user friendly way to make the modifications in question, the whole thing might wind up being more trouble than it’s worth…. You need a thousand dollar piece of software to make changes to graphics, you gotta look at rows of 000000000000000000000000’s till your eyes bleed….GRRR

-=Vel=-

Vel, whoever said you need a thousand dollar piece of software? Sheeze. Ever hear of Paint Shop Pro? Does the job very nicely. I have Version 7, it's awesome. It's more than capable of what you are proposing (adding new unit graphics). Just don't ask me to do it, not that experienced with it yet.

NS

[Vultur]

Why to eliminate clean reactor?
I don't see the reason...
Freeabil to all AI is a good idea, but you cannot give two FAs to one faction (so Pirates are forced do choose CR or MD? this is the question )
I don't use clean units unless for garrison use (Police & AAA)
for the others I use specific units for specific dutys -try Soporific Gas-Nerve Gas on the NJ, maybe against the aliens!-, probe teams and Rovers (amphibious-drop)
For sea units I use AAA & Marine (I've conquered 15 sea bases with two of these units!)
My idea of clean reactor is to correct its cost (maybe too cheap) so you cannot hurry a clean garrison so easly.
In addition the minerals' cost of the supported units (also in monumentum games) is much less then a bad INDUSTRY rate in SE. If a unit costs normally 40 with Power costs 48 as if the base support 8 units!! -and power give only 2 gratis units-
SUPPORT is a part of SE without a serious weight...
maybe giving +5 SUPPORT (ouch!) negative effect of INDUSTRY may vanish (but so AI has less need of CR... or not?)
Try at your own risk.

-V

[Velociryx]

The (Revised) Splinter Factions:

Heretics of Chiron: +2 Planet, +1 Morale, -1 Research, -1 Industry. Starts with two mindworms. Tech at start: Centauri Ecology. No SE aversions. Immune to negative impacts on their planet rating.

(Design Notes: Splinter Group from the Believers. Like the mother faction, they are hurt when it comes to research, and they get something of an attack bonus (in the form of the higher morale), but those are the only similarities with the faction that spawned them. The Heretics have much in common with the Gaian faction, regarding Planet as sacred and not to be despoiled. In truth, they see the new world as their Eden. A paradise to be melded with rather than fought. Because of this almost mystical worldview of Chiron, the Heretics spend much of their time communing with Planet, which leaves less time mundane pursuits (research), and they would certainly do nothing that would blemish the pristine nature of Chiron (Industry). From a game standpoint, the ability to run FM and keep a positive planet rating is intriguing, but not unlike Morgan running Wealth/Green (and therefore not unbalancing IMO) Starting with two mindworms and having a stout ability to catch more makes them a great rush faction too, and they can continue the rush campaign even when running Market, as their abilities to capture worms are not degraded by the money machine. The additional research penalty (over and above the minuses that everybody has to deal with in the early game) is punishing, but I think it goes far in balancing the group. Good terraforming and steady expansion should see them through until they can begin snagging techs).



DataPirates: +2 Probe, +1 Efficiency -2 Police. Tech at start: Information Networks, Doctrine: Mobility (all those computer racing games!) Begin with 1 Former, Immune to negative impacts on their Probe ability. All troops come with built in polymorphic encryption.

(Design Notes: Splinter group from the University. Hacker/punk sub-culture that thrived in the University’s easily-to-infiltrate society. Essentially, I see these guys as being brats…lol…smart as hell (probe rating and their ability to find shortcuts to arrive at end results leads to the effie bonus) but essentially lazy (thus, no research bonus for them at all). They’d rather steal tech than work for it, and because of that, they’re understandably police shy. For the most part, their modifiers (both positive and negative) center around relatively low-powered segments of the game though (exception made for the small efficiency kick), and I feel that the DataPirates are probably the closest thing I’ve got to a “baseline” faction. The one thing that DOES make them kinna cool is the fact that they can run Knowledge and not have to worry about their probe rating suffering, essentially driving them to it.


The Circle of Ashaandi: -3 Support, -3 Morale (Support hit comes from the inner-circle’s lavish lifestyle….soaks up resources, leaving relatively fewer available to support the actual running of the empire – Morale hit comes from troops serving out of fear. Also the fact that Ashaandi’s troops are not considered shock troops, but assassins…good at sneaking around, but lacking in hand-to-hand prowess.), Sharetech 3, Punishment Sphere in Every Base. No SE Aversions (but their native support hit means you’d have to drag them kicking and screaming to Dem!) Tech at start: Applied Physics. Begins with one Former. All units come with “Blink” built in (Troops are actually assassins, good at sneaking around).

(Design Notes: Breakaway group from the Hive. Should be a MOST interesting faction to play. No drone riots, EVER, regardless of…well, anything, and no need for control facilities. All this comes with a hefty price tag, however. Aversion to Dem is extremely punishing, and their native support hit, when combined with the proposed changes to the default SE table settings means that it’ll be expensive for them to field their units. The spheres really make for a two edged sword…true, they get productive bases, but that 50% research penalty (on top of the already slower than normal research proposed in the mod) makes them probably the worst researchers in the game. Still, the sharetech ability should see them keeping pace. I have no idea if I can actually make the “blink” thing work or not. If not, they’ll certainly need some other advantage to offset that crushing support hit. I see them as having relatively fewer troops (no kidding, with their heinous support costs!), and their morale will be wretched, but the army will nonetheless be deadly, with the ability to simply bypass base defenses. They can run a Market-based war with impunity, and as they can shift to SE choices which will reduce their support penalty, they’ll be able to field an increasing number of troops. Probably the most unusual faction of the lot, and they should be quite a bit of fun to play. In MP, either kill them early or make alliances against them would be my guess, cos once they get to a –3 support, they can field twice as many troops!



Honshu’s Militia: +2 Morale, Votes halved in Planetary Council, Immune to morale minuses, -1 Efficiency, -1 Economy (training troops and keeping that wicked army up to date drains a great many resources from the economy, holding it down). Honshu begins with a single unity chopper and a former. Begins with: Doctrine Loyalty. No SE aversions.

(Design Notes: Breakaway group from Santiago. The only faction in the game that starts with a tech that has an attached SP. Odds are good that they’ll get the Command Nexus, and if they do, they’ve got the best troops on Chiron. The hit to efficiency hurts their expansion slightly, and until they get Industrial Automation, they won’t make much money, but the fact that they can run Wealth with no penalty makes the run to IA crucial for them. In fact, this group is dependent on Wealth….mid game, most factions “outgrow” Wealth in preference for Knowledge, but the Militia will be unable to do so if they’re looking to keep the money coming in (and, their immunity really does make Wealth an attractive option for the entire course of the game, essentially leaving them with an easily dealt with effie problem, and almost no chance of getting the governorship). I see this group as the diametric opposite of Ashaandi’s. Good, solid troops against slinky assassin type troops, and neither of them are particularly adept at research, though Ashaandi’s Sharetech surely gives him the edge there. As an aside, would their immunity to Morale hits make them immune to that funky smax gas that lowers morale???



Humanists: +2 Support (very team spirited society), -2 Morale(not much attention is paid to training troops for war), Free Children’s Creche with tech, -2 Police. Begins with Social Psych, 1 Scout, and 1 Former. Not allowed to run Police State.

(Design Notes: The only faction in the game that starts with a support value of 0—given the way I intend to change the default SE settings), and this is an important edge, IMO. Add in the fact that they still get free minerals when switching to Dem, and they can expand almost as well as Ashaandi’s group (not quite as well of course, cos the drones WILL eventually catch them, but not bad at all. The free facility comes pretty early in the game, and is not terribly expensive to build manually, but I thought it was a nice perk for the faction, and it undoes their morale hit from the moment they get Ethical Calc. The police negative, and inability to run a Police State is an outgrowth of their PeaceKeeping origins.

Builder’s Coven: +1/+1/+1 From Fungus tiles, Free Psi-Gate in every base, +1 Planet, -1 Economy, -2 Growth. Tech at start: Centauri Ecology, 1 Scout. Not allowed to run wealth.

(Design Notes: Breakaway group from Dee. Dr. Pavel’s group shares a love of Planet with the faction he broke from, but where Dee would rather spend her time communing with Planet, the Doctor’s group strives to unlock the mysteries of the monoliths, and the alien culture that was obviously once here. As such, a great deal of their time has been spent studying the Monoliths, and the Psi-gate at every base is meant to be the “human constructed equivalent” of the Monolith—in the fanfic I’ve written about Chiron, Monoliths were (among other things) rapid transport systems used by the aliens to move around Planet. Thus, the Psi Gate represents mastery over that particular aspect of the technology for this group). Besides, I think the Psi Gate is a pretty cool, though under used facility, and it has intriguing possibilities for the group, both offensively and defensively. The growth penalty was meant to slow them down (they get LOTS of productivity from fungus tiles), and the econ penalty really MEANS something (unlike in Honshu’s case), as the Coven is unable to cling to Wealth to be rid of that particular negative.

Energy Masters: -2 Research, +1 Efficiency +2 Police, 2% Interest on money in the bank, Starting Tech: Industrial Base, Centauri Ecology. No SE aversions. Free Energy Bank at every base, and Energy masters are immune to negative impacts of their police rating (private, heavy-handed security forces for the wealthy are everywhere!)

(Design Notes: A cash-rich, research poor faction, which is something of an oddity. These guys care more about counting their energy credits than they do about gaining additional tech advances, and they start with the basics to do it with a vengeance. They’re good at building infrastructure, thanks to a combination of industrial might (not with a classical industry boost, but with the interest earned on credits, allowing for more and more rushes as wealth amasses) and economic know-how, expressed in the form of efficiency. These guys are masters of control, too, as their kick in effie allows them to run a police-oriented market and not worry a thing about drones! This puts them in a camp somewhat similar to Ashaandi’s where control is concerned, allowing them to focus on infrastructure to increase wealth and eliminate their research penalty, rather than worrying much about building drone control facilities).

Keep in mind that this is likely not the final form of these factions, and that this group will be the ones I’ll be using for the torture mod—meaning that in addition to their faction specific bonuses and penalties, they’ll be staring at (this has changed a few times since I started tweaking the mod, and will likely change a few more times till I’m completely happy with the mix, but at the moment, the starting negatives are:

Frontier: -2 Support, -1 Growth

Survival: -2 Research, -1 Industry

Synopsis, faction-by-faction (at game start)
Heretics: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -3 Research, -2 Industry, +2 Planet, +1 Morale
Pirates: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Efficiency, -2 Police, +2 Probe
Ashaandi: -5 (!) Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -3 Morale
Honshu: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -1 Econ, +2 Morale
Humanist: 0 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -2 Morale, -2 Police
Coven: -2 Support, -3 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Planet, -1 Econ
Masters: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -4 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Efficiency, +2 Police

I’m still touching these guys up, but this is the general direction I’m taking them, so if anybody has any comments on the factions (or the “frontier” and “survival” starting negatives, for that matter), please feel free to chime in!

Other stuff:

Vultur, interesting ideas on revising the tech tree! I like the fact that it’s essentially “reactor driven” and that ties in with your comment about the long delay between fusion and quantum, and the really short delay between quantum and singularity. Definitely a problem that needs to be addressed!

With regards to clean reactors being removed, I’m doing that primarily because support costs are so completely unrealistic in SMAC, and the presence of Clean Reactors only adds to that problem. The ability to create endless streams of units that require no upkeep cost is, IMO game breaking.

For the same reason, I’m compelled to do something drastic with the crawler, and I’m kinna leaning toward upping the price and forcing it to carry a support cost as well (which will increase the payback time on every crawler built). I also like the idea of making it where crawlers can’t be cashed in for full value, and will try to change that too! If I can’t, however, I’m tempted to just be rid of them entirely, perhaps pulling all of the orbital stuff forward in the tech tree, opening up the space race that much sooner.

Good points made here about some techs just being entirely pivotal….IA probably being the worst of these. I agree that if the benefits were spread out, especially over a number of different branches of the tech tree, it would serve to slow the game down further, and strengthen otherwise weak techs (all together now….Optical Computers!).

Tokamak and Smack….excellent news about the Alpha.txt file….the freeabil is EXACTLY what I was looking for with regards to some of the factions (see above!). Awesome! And, I’m looking forward to getting your take on the new splinter faction designs, especially Ashaandi’s….his was the hardest of the lot to balance, and of course, being at work I’ve not had the chance to test these numbers yet, so he might not BE balanced, but I think it’ll be close.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

More stuff on the Torture mod:

I’m shopping for opinions here, so I’ll put my latest ideas out to get picked apart….here goes….

The point has been aptly made that some techs in the game are just too crucial NOT to beeline for, and that fact drives the game in a “too-specific” direction. In particular, the most often beelined for techs are:

1) Industrial Automatioin
2) Doctrine: Air Power
3) MMI
4) Fusion
5) Bio-Engineering (Clean)

(If I’ve missed some, don’t hesitate to jump in and fill in the blanks!)

Industrial Automation: The more I think about it, the more tempted I am to simply take crawlers out of the equation. Even if I raise the price AND require support, the basic problems with the unit would still remain….true, those things would mean it’d take longer for them to be notable, but it would happen in the end. I think the crawler has to go, but it’s not as simple as that. In order to fill the gap, I think that the orbital stuff should be brought forward dramatically, perhaps allowing for hydro-sats as early as fossil fuels (the ability to launch multi-staged rockets to the upper atmosphere), but again, we’re “bunching” abilities by doing that. Ideas on exactly where we could start making orbitals available?

IMO, Fusion is okay where it is….even a dead beeline for it will take you a while to reach it. I like its overall position on the tree (though it could be argued that getting Fusion Reactors, Engineers, AND Fusion Labs from that one tech is a bit over powering….perhaps then, engineers could be pushed to another, weaker tech?)

Also in the mod, I think I’ll make the general assumption that the military plays a fairly large role in research (primarily as a source of funding). Thus, when new breakthroughs occur, the military gets them first. As such, the fusion reactor will remain with the Fusion tech, but the Fusion Lab might get pushed back to the next D-level tech on the tree. Don’t know, but that’s kinna my thinking.

Likewise, to help even out the gap difference between fusion -> Quantum and Quantum -> Singularity, I’ll move the Quantum reactor forward (again, the military gets it first), and leave the Converter where it is….how’s that sound?

Air Power: This could be undone as a “power play” by simply making AAA tracking come well before the planes…ideas for what tech to move AAA tracking to? (since mil algos already has Power attached to it, we could leave it as is, and simply move AAA to some weaker tech, further down on the tree).

MMI: In the mod, choppers will be severely limited in their movement, and the CBA won’t exist, leaving the Cyborg Factory and the (weakened) chopper chassis with the tech. In my mind, it’s certainly an attractive tech still, but not the game breaker it once was.

Bio-Engineering: Clean exits stage left, making this a good, but not a game breaking tech.

So….time for some specific questions then. Assuming all of the above,
1) What tech do we make hydrosats available?

2) Energy sats?

3) Mineral sats?

4) In order to strengthen the naval aspect of the game, I want to move the carrier deck closer in, to make it available a good deal sooner than it is currently. Ideas for what tech there? (I was thinking that it should be made available somewhere in the same general area as Doctrine: Air Power, but I’ve no ideas about a specific tech….except that it shouldn’t actually BE D: AP, which is powerful enough as it is.

5) Same with the deep pressure hull (I’d like to make this available at around the same time as the carrier deck, possibly slightly before (somewhere around Fossil Fuels?) Taken together, points four and five would dramatically strengthen naval options in the mid-game, and it would add some versatility to the now weakened chopper, with the possibility now open for mid-game carrier based task forces sporting a mix of choppers and jets (with the short ranged choppers serving the same basic role as the “Phalanx Defense System” on our current warships).

6) Quantum reactors need to be available for troops much sooner than they are. Ideas for tech there?

7) To help further counter the air power threat in the game, and make it an even less attractive beeline, AAA Tracking needs to be made available sooner than the planes themselves (the development of primitive radar would make it possible, even if attack jets are only theoretical at that point). I’m thinking opti-comps for this, how’s that sound?

Remember here, that the main goal is two-fold: First, to bring a number of under used abilities forward in the tech tree, so that they are made available sooner in the game, and second, to create “dispersion” of game abilities….essentially, we don’t want to wind up with one tech giving you four or six different goodies (like MMI does in SMAX!—Thinkers, Choppers, CBA, and CF!?!?!?!?!)

I don't have a tech tree handy here at work, but if nobody has any suggestions, I'll wing it when I get home....was just curious to see what input I got back....lossa smart folks here....what can I say, it's too good a resource to pass on!
-=Vel=-

PS: Thanks Smack! I was pretty worried about Ashaandi’s group….their freefac is really overwhelming….I figured I needed some severe penalties for them or they’d just run away with the game….might still, but you’re right…with so many changes proposed, it’s one of those things that you can sorta guess at, but play testing will be the only way to really know. LOL…and talk about nervous! When I finally get all this stuff ready….when I put the mod up for downloading and feedback, I KNOW I won’t be able to sleep a wink!

Having come back from lunch and pondering it the whole time, a couple things are bugging me about it though. I think that the mega-support hit faced by Ashaandi’s group is going to require patience to play in the early game, which might detract from the fun….it won’t be impossible to get going, but it will require more careful micromanagement than the norm…..if we assume that a size one base has 4 mins, then that base could support a garrison and a pod en route, or a former and a pod en route, but not a garrison, former, AND pod….yow! And, my memory might not be serving me well at the moment….if a size one base (without a rec. tank) has only three mins, then the base wouldn’t even be able to have a garrison and support a new pod unless the player waited till the base grew to size three….that’s pretty harsh….

The only other thing I can’t quite remember is exactly how those negative research ratings work. Is it no research for 5 years for every minus to research? If so, that means that the Energy Masters will no be researching any tech at all for twenty turns….even for a research poor faction, that strikes me as being too long, which would prompt me to reduce their research penalty by one.

Depending on how many bases that a non-rec-tanked size one base working a forest tile has at its disposal, I may change Ashaandi’s starting tech to biogen, so they’ll have access to recycling tanks. That would work, and it would make the group that much more unusual, since they’d have to plan their minerals out very carefully, In all but a few cases, building the tanks before they could even think about expansion. It’ll also likely prompt close base stacking, so that interior bases can run with no garrisons at all, preserving a few more precious minerals. The one thing I’m reluctant to do with the group though, is lessen their support penalty….as I see it, that’s the one thing that’ll keep them from simply ‘borging their way to dominance. Their troops might have lousy morale, but their free ability more than makes up for that, and if we allowed them to field an army that even began to approach the size of the other factions, they’d simply run away with the game.

[Avenoct]

Great stuff Vel!

At a cursory look, everybody appears balanced or leaning towards excruciatingly difficult! I think b/c your SE changes, IA changes, and clean reactor changes, it'll be very hard to guess how the mod will play until it's tested. That's a good thing! When a final Beta is ready players are going to go into an entirely new Chiron and have to really use their noggins. On the other hand, balancing-rebalancing factions will be tough b/c it's just too hard IMO to guess how they'll play out. We'll actually have to go in there and have a look. As ever, your creativity shines through and is nicely balanced by tons of experience and awareness of game mechanics. Would that every game-designer had all three!

-Smack

[JustinSane]

This mod looks extremely cool, though also mercilessly difficult. I can't wait to play it
I've got a couple of questions though. First, have you checked the immunity faction ability? I'm pretty sure it just keeps the value from dropping below zero. As an example, once I ran Yang as police state, planned, knowledge, and cybernetic. His efficiency in social engineering was 0, whereas it should have been +3 if it was a true immunity. Also, I believe it only says that it eliminates negative efficiency effects. Ambiguous, but it would seem to allow for the above phenomenon. Impunity on the other hand actually seems to eliminate the negative effect of a given social setting, for instance with impunity police state, running police state, free market and knowledge, eff. is +1.
Also, I think that mindworms and green factions might be overpowered in this mod, given the presence of even a little native life. First off, natives and probe teams are the only "clean" units left. In particular, you could build an infinite number of locusts and park them over a fungus patch while still retaining the mobility of a flying unit to get them where they need to be. Their natural enemy, copters, have been crippled as well. I'm also of the opinion that starting with two mind worms and +2 planet is imbalancing. Two worms and scout patrols, or a bit later synthemetal garrison, are a lethal rush force in and of themselves, and they can hit before trance with the new difficulty in research. The +2 planet means they are likely to recruit clean reinforcements as well. I forsee some serious bee-lining for centuari empathy in this mod. Empath Guild has always been great; now mindworms just became worth more than the mineral cost to build them. Bio-labs, acting as a command center for the worms, also become valuable.