Favourite Faction

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by dworkin
The Believers. Not the brightest bunch but the biggest. I'll admit it's a bit of a crawl till you get probes but then it's probes anywhere and everywhere.

Indeed. Surely its the only way to be the Believers. Keep the University and Morganites alive and probe them of everything they've got (so long as you let them stay strong enough to make enough cash and technology to be of any interest).

So you're a crazed, bible thumping looney with thousands of armed fanatics screaming for blood at your beck and call? At least you are not pretending to be nice like all those other godless wretches.

Actually, when I play as the Believers, I actually do pretend to be the nice guy. I simply frame another faction when I use my probes. If they succeed, I look like the nice guy which really helps in Planetary Governor elections. If they fail, I simply loose my bible-thumping gun nuts on them and force them into submission, give them their bases back, rinse and repeat (if another probe action against them fails).

[Kirov]

I find the opening by believers very boring. Finding another faction can take ages, and just imagine you're on the island and have to discover D:Flexibility by yourself...

[Jethro83]

Sure the Believers get to a slow start, but once the other factions are located and you have Planetary Networks (of course you need to buy it), the game rapidly accelerates.

Unfortunately, being alone on an island is quite a curse for the Believers. And its hardly worth playing on. The Believers are made for a game where you have a lot of neighbours on the same landmass.

[Gunnar Thor]

Spartans. Passive Aggressive all the way.

[Hendrik]

I like the Morganites the best, and I also do well with them. Having a lot of energy promotes a virtuous cycle... money buys infrastructure, infrastructure gives you more money and tech, more money and tech give you more infrastructure... ad infinitum.

It is really easy with the Morganites to boost energy production up to an obscene level and take the infrastructural and tech lead over any other faction.

Getting to Industrial auto, wealth, and supply crawlers fast minimizes support penalties and allows you to build the SPs you want to.

As far as the Morganites depending on a good start position... I find it is easier for the Morganites than for any other faction to expand across an unoccupied continent fast if you know how to rush buy recycling tanks and ICS. If you start next to a hostile AI then it usually isn't a problem, if you start next to a hostile player then things can get a bit dicey. Energy is important in combat though, being able to rush buy or upgrade units gives you much much more flexibility than any other faction in the early game. But once you get into the midgame then you are set... if you are able to build this long then superior tech and energy give you a lot of flexibility. Also Morgan is a versatile midgame faction with Demo/Green/Wealth, this allows you to get the conventional FM +2 econ bonus without having to worry about pacifism drones.

The UofP gets tech fast but can't utilize it quickly enough... having the tech for tree farms doesn't help you if you don't have enough energy to utilize it, the They seem like a one trick horse to me, rush for D:AP and conquer other players. The University can't compete with most other builder or hybrid factions in the midgame, because the drone penalties funnel too much energy away from research.

The drones on the other hand face the opposite problem... they can build whatever they have the tech for, but they have a hard time researching tech themselves.

The Morganites are just strong throughout the game for me. In the early game strong research and money allows you to stand toe to toe with momentum factions having more units, in the midgame the infrastructure lead gives you a competitive advantage, and in the late game... well by this point your infrastructure advantage makes Morgan very powerful.

Morgan is a happy medium between the two. Tech*Money is a powerful combo.

[Method]

ok, it's official: this thread is immortal

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Hendrik

The UofP gets tech fast but can't utilize it quickly enough... having the tech for tree farms doesn't help you if you don't have enough energy to utilize it, the They seem like a one trick horse to me, rush for D:AP and conquer other players. The University can't compete with most other builder or hybrid factions in the midgame, because the drone penalties funnel too much energy away from research.

The Morganites are just strong throughout the game for me. In the early game strong research and money allows you to stand toe to toe with momentum factions having more units, in the midgame the infrastructure lead gives you a competitive advantage, and in the late game... well by this point your infrastructure advantage makes Morgan very powerful.

Morgan is a happy medium between the two. Tech*Money is a powerful combo.

I have to disagree based upon my own experiences, though I don't claim to be a good Morgan player, I have played both the Uni and Morgan from similar positions, and I must say that I just don't see the advantage of Morgan. I am usually about 20 years ahead in development after the first 100 years as Zak vs playing Morgan from a very similar starting position.

I just don't worry about those drones. They aren't too hard to handle honestly. As for producing the infrastructure that your tech advances make available to you, it's not too hard either. Simply beeline for crawlers, switch to wealth and bootstrap your industry. Then build all the drone protection you'll need via the VW and HGP. I use crawlers in fact to take care of both drone problems and boost early game minerals.

Both factions have a combat problem. For Morgan it's the support issue, which is a real limitation in the early game, especially if you are fighting someone who isn't all that vulnerable to probes. For the University, their vulnerability to probes can be a problem. Cheap probe garrisons are vital for any part of your empire that might be vunerable to drone assault.

By even the early midgame both factions are powerhouses. They both have some good SE choices for either peace or war, and both receive a nice bonus to their output. Their weaknesses in the early game are almost an afterthought at this point.

[Hendrik]

Yeah I agree.. Morgan's only lasting disadvantage is the hab limit, and ascetic virtues more or less nullifies that, Zack can solve his probe problems with the HSA.

As far as development goes... it depends on the situation. Sure having crawlers helps develop your infrastructure, but having a good economy helps much more, because you can more easily spend money to equalize development at your bases or boost up a SSC. Money is also key to buying SPs- crawler upgrades give Morgan an advantage at midgame SP building.

I can see situations where Zack would excell, and situations where Morgan would excell. The more commerce you are receiving, the better Morgan does. If you are running FM/Wealth then it should be very easy to get obscene amounts of cash from trade. Zack won't get this money, making him somewhat of a weaker choice in games where there is a lot of commerce.

I also am saying this from the perspective of someone who has more experience with Morgan than Zack... In games where I play as Zack I usually have about the same tech as I would with Morgan after 100 years, but lag behind infrastructurally *shrugs* there are so many variables it is hard to compare factions. It is just very easy to get ahead of anyone else with Morgan by running FM/Wealth as soon as you can, you make 6 money per base square, by rush buying recycling tanks you can expand really rapidly, the UofP doesn't have any similar fast expansion technique.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Hendrik
As far as development goes... it depends on the situation. Sure having crawlers helps develop your infrastructure, but having a good economy helps much more, because you can more easily spend money to equalize development at your bases or boost up a SSC. Money is also key to buying SPs- crawler upgrades give Morgan an advantage at midgame SP building.

I can see situations where Zack would excell, and situations where Morgan would excell. The more commerce you are receiving, the better Morgan does. If you are running FM/Wealth then it should be very easy to get obscene amounts of cash from trade. Zack won't get this money, making him somewhat of a weaker choice in games where there is a lot of commerce.

I also am saying this from the perspective of someone who has more experience with Morgan than Zack... In games where I play as Zack I usually have about the same tech as I would with Morgan after 100 years, but lag behind infrastructurally *shrugs* there are so many variables it is hard to compare factions. It is just very easy to get ahead of anyone else with Morgan by running FM/Wealth as soon as you can, you make 6 money per base square, by rush buying recycling tanks you can expand really rapidly, the UofP doesn't have any similar fast expansion technique.

I would rather have a crawler bootstrapped industry than a high flying economy, though I usually have both when playing either Zak or Morgan. The difference is that I will have my industry up and running sooner with Zak because he will get crawlers before Morgan will. Compare the power of having 15 minerals per base vs having 6 econ per base. I can produce 7 econ a turn simply by stockpiling energy, or half a crawler for a less developed base. Obviously Zak can run FM / Wealth as can Morgan, though he doesn't get the maximum bonus from commerce.

Morgan's chief advantage here is his ability to run Wealth only and still get that +2 Econ. This allows him to use police to quell drones while still in his initial expansion / exploration phase, while Zack ends up having to rush rec commons and curtail exploration to deal with the large negatives from running FM. It is by no means a temporary advantage, but the way I play it is most advantageous in this part of the early game.

I agree that most of the time I have my first set of bases (up to the 1st bureau limit) in place sooner with Morgan than with Zak, but this is in large part due to the fact that I stop building colony pods in my first few bases quite early in order to start building infrastructure, mostly crawlers recycling tanks and rec commons. While this makes the last few bases a little late, it tends to also guarantee that I will get a lion's share of the early game SP. I'm just too greedy to not have the WP, HGP, VW, and usually the PTS and another early game SP in my clutches.

Morgan has to play catch up a bit with the SPs, though it's not too tough for him to get the critical ones he needs. One nice advantage for those who use the crawler upgrade trick is that Morgan already has synthmetal prototyped, which means that those trance synthmetal crawlers are ready to serve as SP builders early in the game. I give my Zack game an advantage vs my Morgan game here nonetheless, mainly due to the larger number of minerals produced at this stage and the larger number of crawlers already built.

I just started a new game as Morgan yesterday, but didn't get too far into it. I'll crank that up today and see whether I can't improve my Morgan game a bit.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Sik,

I agree with your overall impressions of Zak. A couple of points tho'. Morgie is best suited going Biogenetics asap and first builds being rec tanks rushed.

Then go the IA beeline with centauri (formers) picked up along the way.

After crawlers go the Secrets of the Human Brain route and research to get crecehs if threatened. One more stop to Green and you can go conquering with natives and probe teams or continue to research on towards weapon techs.

All the while Morgie continues to ICS whilst in FM/wealth combo if not threatened.

One of the probs with Zak is that whilst in wealth his opportunity to get elites is less than Morgie. Zak has to do a lot more in order to churnout elites, as Fundy/wealth creches is not an option. Morgie goes Fundy/wealth creches command center/ bioenhancement trained and voila all troops are elite. Zak must run knowledge to achieve the same and then he gives up +2 econ unless running FM.

All in all both play differntly once you get past the initial builderish phase but each one is interesting. I agree tho' Zak to my mind is a bit stronger, although I do enjoy playing both.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Sik,

I agree with your overall impressions of Zak. A couple of points tho'. Morgie is best suited going Biogenetics asap and first builds being rec tanks rushed.

Then go the IA beeline with centauri (formers) picked up along the way.

After crawlers go the Secrets of the Human Brain route and research to get crecehs if threatened. One more stop to Green and you can go conquering with natives and probe teams or continue to research on towards weapon techs.

All the while Morgie continues to ICS whilst in FM/wealth combo if not threatened.

So you find that this more than makes up for the delay in getting formers and IA? I haven't played Morgan like this for a long time, mainly because I have been worried about getting IA late. I'll give it a try.

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
One of the probs with Zak is that whilst in wealth his opportunity to get elites is less than Morgie. Zak has to do a lot more in order to churnout elites, as Fundy/wealth creches is not an option. Morgie goes Fundy/wealth creches command center/ bioenhancement trained and voila all troops are elite. Zak must run knowledge to achieve the same and then he gives up +2 econ unless running FM.

All in all both play differntly once you get past the initial builderish phase but each one is interesting. I agree tho' Zak to my mind is a bit stronger, although I do enjoy playing both.

I hear what you are saying about Zak's weak troops during the Wealth era. Fortunately he gets to Knowledge fairly quickly most of the time, and I am usually looking for more efficiency and morale about that time, so I usually make the switch. I hadn't even thought of going Fundy with Morgan to get elites (or at least not until the discussion on CGN), I have usually gone with the "Green War Machine" in an emergency. It provides pseudo clean troops who don't suffer at all from a morale penalty. I can usually get a good kill ratio with worms vs the AI, and this makes them worth the initial mins. Even one or two are often enough to break up a fairly heavy enemy attack, especially if they are accompanied by a probe or two and you have built the +50% Psi Defense SP.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

"So you find that this more than makes up for the delay in getting formers and IA? I haven't played Morgan like this for a long time, mainly because I have been worried about getting IA late. I'll give it a try."

No I still rate Zak the real monster builder and monster faction overall. I have found the initial rush of tanks using the initial 100 ec's is the best opening gambit as it allows the earliest quick expansion and gives you flexibility to go towards IA without necessarily sidetracking to Formers, if you so choose. You obviously want formers but with Biogenetics you may want to be tempted to go straight for Secrets of the Human Brain and bypass Formers and IA for the moment. I normally fight that urge and instead concentrate on getting to FM early and making the switch early and continuing the tried and true beeline to IA and pick up formers when one of the beline techs aren't available.


"I hear what you are saying about Zak's weak troops during the Wealth era. Fortunately he gets to Knowledge fairly quickly most of the time, and I am usually looking for more efficiency and morale about that time, so I usually make the switch. I hadn't even thought of going Fundy with Morgan to get elites (or at least not until the discussion on CGN), I have usually gone with the "Green War Machine" in an emergency. It provides pseudo clean troops who don't suffer at all from a morale penalty. I can usually get a good kill ratio with worms vs the AI, and this makes them worth the initial mins. Even one or two are often enough to break up a fairly heavy enemy attack, especially if they are accompanied by a probe or two and you have built the +50% Psi Defense SP. "

I normally only think of the warring option if you get squeezed early and this typically is a criticism of Morgie moreso than Zak. I only put the above in because Morgie has the rep of being an early push over and not a war mongerer faction and I was trying to refute that claim to some extent. I have, however, impact rushed with Morgan going Fundy/green/wealth creche/Command Nexus/ Bioenhancement center. It was a beautiful thing. I was churning out Commando 4-1-1's stopping by a monolith to elite-a-fy them and using land transports at the point of attacks, thus allowing the full two attacks.

The land transport was so effective as I had a road up to the base inquestion. The transport shuttled a fresh 4-1-1 to the point of attack. 4-1-1 would attack. Shuttle would go back a square and pick up the next and delviver to the attack. I was thus able to get 2 infantry units to the doorstep in a single turn and deliver their +25% attack (2 times each without suffering the 33% hasty penalty on the 2nd attack)

But I digress.

I still feel Zak the more powerful overall faction and albeit a bit less overall energy production than Morgie, not significantly so (and this is normally nullied or turned into an advantage for Zak when considering specialists and ability to pop boom to get specialists immediately). Morgie does shine tho' in his own right especially considering (were it not for our penchant for specialization) Morgie would likely be able to out research Zak in the midgame by going demo/green/wealth and slamming energy allocation to 100% labs.

[Hendrik]

Just curious Sikander would you like to play an IP game? I don't really want to start any new PBEMs... they move so slowly, I just can't stand it. It would be fun to have a build off with Zack and Morgan.

As far as researching IA goes I pick biogenetics as a first tech, and industrial economics as a second tech, and then go wealth immediatly. It has been a long time since I played a single player game. But as far as playing catch up- the tremendous amounts of cash that Morgan makes allow you to upgrade crawlers to make up for your lack of existing crawlers, and build it quickly.

I also use energy to rush buy any crawler in production at my HQ base that has more than 10 minerals in it, I crank them out as quickly as I can.

Ogie's description of Morgan is exactly what I like to do. Actually do you remember when I posted under the name Enigma Ogie? I think we were talking about early game Morgan like a year ago or so.

One other thing Sik, if you don't play IP then perhaps we could exchange some SAV files? I have an "ideal" game on the standard map of planet I played as Morgan, where I started on the center continent and built to my hearts content, I would have been able to build the Ascent around MY 170 or so, but I could have done it earlier if I screwed around with energy parks... I just find they are too much micro.

My email address is hendrik.veerhusen@mail.trincoll.edu, anyone who wants to can send me a save. I have reached a point in my gaming career where I play with a fairly rigid style- a style that works, but I still think I can improve upon. I am just looking for inspiration I will send you my saves if you wish, and would love to have any advice you can give.

I have 1 SP game where I played all the way to transcendance, and a few sets of MP IP game saves.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Enigma a.k.a. Hendrik the credit is all yours this early opening gambit of your for Morgie is a beaut. and yes I obviously remember the conversation other wise I wouldn't have so blatently stolen it LOL...

I actually think between the two builder powres there is likely to be a several changes in power.

I see it something like this.

Zak gets to IA first. Zak builds the first set of crawlers and may get oneo f the early SP's. Figure My 2120ish

Zak has the early Lead

Morgie gets to IA 2125 ish and builds crawlers by MY 2128ish.

Morgie capitalizes on massive energy and builds 2 to 3 of the early SP's.

Morgie takes over the lead.

Zak builds the other 2 to 3.

Midgame gambit. Depending on what Morgie got he continues sprawl.

Zak prepares for pop boom and specialization.
Zak sprawls after pop boom is complete wherein he starts to build his lead.

Zak retakes lead.

(this of course assumes no war between the two or against other factions it also negates the effects of trade income etc.)

[Hendrik]

Wow... is it really possible for Zack to get an SP in the early 20s? This would be pretty mind boggling... if you guys have some SAV files showing this I would be very interested. I mean in 25 years you will barely be able to get any terraforming done, crawlers are only half as efficient without forests to harvest from. I would like to see this in action

As far as Zack pop booming, around what year does he usually do this? If you are playing on a map with average settings you will need to get to tree farms before you can efficiently popboom in any bases but the coastal bases.

Please Ogie, Sik, send me some saves, expand my horizons