AI Crawler Cashing

[Ned]

The AI, particularly at the Transcend difficulty level, has a considerable advantage in the number of minerals it takes to produce anything. However, this is not an advantage if the unit produced is a crawler and the crawler is intended to be cashed to build an SP or a prototype.

However, I seem to have noticed also that when an AI cashes a crawler, the number of minerals towards an AI goes up by at least 30 minerals.

So, isn't it interesting, then, that whenever you see the AI building a crawler that it intends to cash there are a number of red rows in the production box indicating that it is paying for a lot more minerals than required to build the crawler. What I suspect is happening is that the crawler, when cashed, will cash not only the cost of crawler, but also the cost of all those extra, red minerals.

I have never counted the minerals, but I bet they total to at least 30, maybe more.

Does anyone know for certain what's going on here?

Ned

[Ned]

In my current game, I observed the following:

Diedre and Lal were racing me to complete the Nural Amplifier. Diedre built a crawler that in the next turn she cashed for 31 minerals. The production box was 6 minerals wide by 3 deep. However, she paid for an extra row for a total of 24. Again, cashed, this crawler generated 31 minerals. During the turn that the crawler was generated, Diedre's cost to complete the project was 240. The turn she cashed the crawler, it was 180. This indicates a 30% change in SE industry settings.

Lal, however, completed the Nural Amplifier in one turn and forced me to pay cash to beat him. How? I observed him construct two crawlers. The first one was 96 minerals (in a 15 mineral production box) and in the other was 56. This totals 152. His total cost for the project was 180 minerals. He may have had a 30 mineral crawler nearby to make up the difference.

What are we to conclude from this?

I suggest the AI can somewhat arbitrarily pay as much as it wants for crawlers, and cash their full paid-for value towards the SP. To simplify the game, the AI does not have to come up with exotic crawler configurations. It uses only one. It just remembers how much the crawler cost.

I don't know this off the top of my head, but I assume that rushing a crawler and paying for minerals beyond the production box will cost the AI 3 EC's per mineral. I haven't checked this. Is this roughly the same as upgrading a crawler from one configuration to another?

This is not the same a human using the crawler upgrade trick, but it is close.

Ned

[RedFred]

The really impressive thing you have got going there is that the AI is building and using crawlers. That is the real crawler trick. My AI only seems to want to build a token number of crawlers and I have yet to observe the AI cashing them in to nab a SP. Even when the AI does build a small number of crawlers [in the games I've seen] they tend to wander around with them a lot instead of getting an extra resource or more rapid SP. Er, any tips on how you get the AI to be a little bit brighter?

[Earwicker]

I'll second that! I was astonished the single time I've encountered AI Roze's crawlers, actually in use to bring in energy from monoliths outside the base radius. "There may be hope for you yet," I muttered. But that was many games ago without reprise. I have yet to see the AI hurry a project with crawlers. If there's a tweak for the AI to make more intelligent decisions in this regard, I'd love to know it.

[Misotu]

quote: Originally posted by Earwicker on 05-17-2001 09:22 AMIf there's a tweak for the AI to make more intelligent decisions in this regard, I'd love to know it.

None known. But if you take on humans, *they* certainly will do this

I know, I know. Shamelessly promoting the Apolyton tournament. But we have loads of people playing at all difficulty levels, from absolute beginner and MP novice upwards. If you are at the point where you're frustrated with the AI, it's probably time to put your toe in the Multiplayer Waters. It's really a lot of fun and the tourny is *not* peopled by fearsome gurus who'll tear your head off.

More info, and the sign-up thread is here.

[Ned]

I too have seen the AI crawl energy, but have yet to see it crawl minerals. I believe that this is because most of the time, the AI is severely ED limited due to a bad terraforming strategy and underinvestment in Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests and Centauri Preserves. Where we would put a crawler on a mine and turn the worker into a specialist, the AI will simply work the mine.

But as to the AI cashing crawlers in an SP race, this seems to be a common technique. Maybe you just haven't noticed it yet.

However, another factor is that I typically play on a larger, custom world and pick as opponents factions that develop infrastructure rather than endlessly build 1-2-1 garrisons (you know who I mean). The remote distances reduce warfare and thereby permit the AI to develop. Factions that seem to develop well include LAL, Diedre, Rose, AKI, Yang and the Usurper. For example, in the current game, LAL and I (Fungboy) are dead even in the power meter with LAL heavily invested with Tree Farms, Hybrid Forrests and Centauri Preserves - the very kind of infrastructure I have.

I noticed that on smalled worlds, the AI tends to be at war constantly. This defers infrastructure building in favor of unit building. Thus, overall, if one can stay out of wars and build infrastructure, it is easy to beat the AI.

Finally, how many times in the mid game, after crawlers, have you been in a real horse race with the AI for an SP? Not often, I believe. As well, since most here use the crawler upgrade trick, the typical player will build the SP in one turn. This does not allow a race to develop. Without the race, you may have never noticed that the AI does know how to use crawlers to compete.

[Earwicker]

quote: Originally posted by Misotu on 05-17-2001 10:55 PM I know, I know. Shamelessly promoting the Apolyton tournament. But we have loads of people playing at all difficulty levels, from absolute beginner and MP novice upwards. If you are at the point where you're frustrated with the AI, it's probably time to put your toe in the Multiplayer Waters. It's really a lot of fun and the tourny is *not* peopled by fearsome gurus who'll tear your head off.

Yep, I'm defintely moving in that direction. Now that my crash-O-matic computer is running better, I no longer have that excuse! See you there soon . . .

[Earwicker]

Jammin! Promoted to Warlord!

[Skanderbeg]

Really astonishing, the AI cashing in crawlers! I am playing SMAC/SMAX now for more than two years, but I had never observed this.

Even when the AI builds crawlers (what rarely happens) they mostly do stupid things with them instead of harvesting minerals or energy.

Many times, they were wandering around, it looks they were used like scouts.

In some cases, I have even seen crawlers as a part of an invasion force!
I can't remember which faction it was, but I can remember a foil disembarking an infantry unit and a crawler to attack my headquarter !

[Googlie]

Hey, now, there's a strategy......

(You know how when you finally capture a base it's in drone riots 'cos the rec commons has been disbanded ...... now what if you ferried over with your invasion force a crawler or 2 either to boost the mineral production or to disband to help rush build the new rec commons)

Oh, that cunning AI ...



G.

[Misotu]

Earwicker, look forward to seeing you in the tourny ... you'll enjoy it. Lots of multiplayer newbies signing up all the time. Once you've played a game or two, you'll wonder why you ever concerned yourself with SP and the AI

[Ned]

On further inspection, I have determined the massive redline mineral count has nothing to do with the cash value of an AI crawler. I have reported separately on what that is in the "The AI" thread. What I have observed is that the cash value of an AI crawler is between 31-37. I think this depends on SE settings. It may also depend on the difficulty level. It does not seem to depend on the AI's cost of producing the crawler.

As well, the AI produces crawlers almost always for one reason and one reason only: rush building SPs.

Ned