Effect on the AI

[stonewall]

I like to play with no Secret Projects, so I edited the appropriate text file to make them unattainable. However, I am wondering if anybody knows if that damages the AI's stategy.

[RedFred]

I can't say for certain, but it seems to me that the AI does an extremely poor job of exploiting its SPs. In fact, I have begun to wonder if its main tactic is denial; so if you are shooting for a particular SP the AI is more concerned with trying to block you from getting it by getting there first. But perhaps the AI ranks the various SPs very similar to how I value them.

How are you finding the games playing out? I assume that you leave the Voice and the Ascent in.

I confess I enjoy the SP feature of the game and tend to build a lot in solo games. My only temptation has been to edit out clearly overpowered SPs, namely the Air Academy and the HSA. (Funny, I've never been probed by a souped-up spy in SMACX after I've gotten the HSA) So far I have resisted this temptation.

With the double blind tech research I often find myself building SPs of dubious value just because I like to always have a base or three working on an SP in case a good one comes up. So I am speculating that the lack of SPs would not slow down my time to transcend by more than 30 to 50 years.

[Ned]

RedFred, Dubious SP's? Keeping three cities working "just in case?"

What SP's are dubious?

Why keep any cities working on SP's? Just build lots of crawlers around selected cities and cash them when you need to builds an SP. If you use the crawler upgrade cheat, you usually need only two.

Bye the bye, further evidence that the crawler upgrade is a cheat is the fact that the AI automatically adds a higher reactor to crawlers every time one researches a new technology - even with autodesign off. (This is really annoying!) This it does not do so with any other type of unit - to my observation.

Ned

[RedFred]

On the crawlers issue...they are great once you get them. Double blind research means that you often don't get Ind Auto until long after you get needlejets.

Dubious SPs? (With the obvious exceptions of the HSA, Vats and the Cloudbase Academy) their utility tends to decline as the game progresses because of the opportunity cost. All those crawlers used to build SPs could just be homed to your science cities to speed up the path to Ascending.

The examples of most useless SPs I usually cite are the Nethack and the Manifold Harmonics. Great as they are, you often don't see them until a few turns before transcending.

Special curcumstances will make any SP valuable, but for the average game I am not upset about missing: Bulk Matter Transmitter, Citizens Defense Force, Cyborg Factory, Dream Twister, Neural Amplifier, Pholus Mutagen, Planetary Datalinks, Self Aware Colony, Singularity Inductor, Space Elevator, Telepathic Matrix & Xenoempathy Dome. There are about half a dozen others that are only mildly disappointing to miss out on.

Before everyone rushes in to nitpick with this list, consider how close many of them come to the end of the game and some of the others are only handy to augment a Green style game.

[Ned]

Ok, If you don't have crawlers, stockpiling as SP is something I occaisionally do. However I must admit, that I get burned more often than not doing it. Often, I have 500+ minerals accumulated before I get an SP to build.

Also, I agree, the late SP's are not as valuable as are the earlier. I also tend to agree with your list as to the least valuable SP's. However, I beg to differ on the Datalinks. If the AI gets this, it can really hamstring your game if you try to keep your submissives up-to-date on technology. I think it is one of the more important SP's.

Ned

[Earwicker]

quote: Originally posted by RedFred on 04-19-2001 02:09 AM The examples of most useless SPs I usually cite are the Nethack and the Manifold Harmonics. Great as they are, you often don't see them until a few turns before transcending.

Agreed. I haven't gotten around to it yet, but have considered editing files to make Nethack avialable closer to HSA, just to keep things challenging. As an end-game SP, the thing is completely useless. It would present an interesting balancing factor to the HSA if around at the same time (only if you disciplined yourself never to build both).

The Manifold does nothing for me except skyrocket eco-damage in high-fungus cities (like the Ruins). By the time I get it, I am playing with high planet rating and high fungus production and it really messes things up. I don't want to move it, since it would be a mid-game backbreaker to factions that didn't have it.

quote: Special curcumstances will make any SP valuable, but for the average game I am not upset about missing: Bulk Matter Transmitter, Citizens Defense Force, Cyborg Factory, Dream Twister, Neural Amplifier, Pholus Mutagen, Planetary Datalinks, Self Aware Colony, Singularity Inductor, Space Elevator, Telepathic Matrix & Xenoempathy Dome. There are about half a dozen others that are only mildly disappointing to miss out on. Before everyone rushes in to nitpick with this list, consider how close many of them come to the end of the game and some of the others are only handy to augment a Green style game.

Agree with all except Cyborg and Xeno, both hit town mid-2200's and are useful for all styles (for instant Elite troops, and for fungus mobility). I would also add the +2 support SP as "missable" because of when it comes around, and the Quantum Converter as "avoid at all costs". Even the Cloning Vats are of "dubious" value -- main bases are maxed-out by that point thru booms, and it's still a long wait until Hab Domes. The Vats have a tendency to turn young/ newly-captured bases into drone factories.

The Datalinks have never posed a problem if an AI gets it, since I keep my submissives living in the Stone Age tech-wise.

[Rift]

quote: Originally posted by RedFred on 04-19-2001 02:09 AM Special curcumstances will make any SP valuable, but for the average game I am not upset about missing: Bulk Matter Transmitter, Citizens Defense Force, Cyborg Factory, Dream Twister, Neural Amplifier, Pholus Mutagen, Planetary Datalinks, Self Aware Colony, Singularity Inductor, Space Elevator, Telepathic Matrix & Xenoempathy Dome. There are about half a dozen others that are only mildly disappointing to miss out on. Before everyone rushes in to nitpick with this list, consider how close many of them come to the end of the game and some of the others are only handy to augment a Green style game.

I agree with most of this list, but Citizen's Defense Force? For maps higher than standard, the number of bases a player has usually revolves around 20...and if each gets a free perimeter defense, which costs 50 minerals, one would save 700 minerals...enough to build 2 early game projects and one late game project with minerals left over. This mineral advantage is cumulative with every extra base.

[Misotu]

quote: Originally posted by Ned on 04-18-2001 09:10 PM Bye the bye, further evidence that the crawler upgrade is a cheat is the fact that the AI automatically adds a higher reactor to crawlers every time one researches a new technology - even with autodesign off. (This is really annoying!) This it does not do so with any other type of unit - to my observation.

In my experience, the AI automatically upgrades the reactors of every available unit, with or without autodesign off. It certainly does not limit this to crawlers and it can be very irritating, as you say.

So there is no evidence there that upgrading crawlers is a "cheat".

[Sikander]

Misotu,

Why would the game designers bother to make it cheaper to pay for SPs with cash only for those players who;

1) Have crawlers.

2) Go through a bizarre ritual of upgrading them with the most expensive features possible only to..

3) Dump them into an SP.

?????????

This is an unintended and unrepaired 'feature'. Because crawlers were designed to retain their mineral value to serve as the smac equivalent of caravans you can turn them in for 100% of the mineral cost of producing the unit. Because of the unit workshop's ability to retrofit existing units with more advanced weapons, armor and abilities, and the fact that this is done with energy rather than minerals means that you can effectively buy minerals at a set cost for the purpose of upgrading. The true intention of the designers to make the purchase of SPs more expensive than the purchase of many other things like unit upgrades is obvious (as it costs more per mineral to purchase an SP). The unintentional aspect is that the crawler returns 100% of it's cost in minerals as though it was produced at a base, even though it can take advantage of this upgrade anomaly and obtain a 2 to 1 ratio or so of energy to minerals.

Of course nothing is a cheat in a single player game, and anything mutually agreeable in multi-player or challenge games is equally fine. So this 'feature' is only a cheat if someone uses it in contradiction of an agreement to not do so. Players should add this to the long list of things which should be worked out ahead of time.

[Simpson II]

IIRC, the upgrade cost formula for crawlers is different to that for all other units, as it takes into account your mineral rating at the time of the upgrade. I don't think Firaxis would have tampered with crawler-upgrade costs unless they intended people to upgrade crawlers, and would probably not have linked it to their mineral cost unless they intended people to cash in upgraded crawlers. So, IMO, it's clearly an intentional feature. Whether it's good for game balance or not is something else..
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited April 23, 2001).]

[Blake]

quote: Originally posted by Rift on 04-21-2001 01:47 PM I agree with most of this list, but Citizen's Defense Force? For maps higher than standard, the number of bases a player has usually revolves around 20...and if each gets a free perimeter defense, which costs 50 minerals, one would save 700 minerals...enough to build 2 early game projects and one late game project with minerals left over. This mineral advantage is cumulative with every extra base.

Be carefull with using "saves", if 80% of your bases don't need perimeter defenses, then you actually didn't "save" anything. Lets face it - defense is generally so pitifull that you are better served building counter-attack units, most players bases probably never get attacked (by ground forces) or if they are the weapon/armour ratio favours the attacker so much that a perimeter defense wouldn't help much anyway.

So by building the CDF you could very well "gain" 700 minerals worth of useless perimeter defenses, which equates to a 0 mineral real gain Also the CDF can create a false sense of security, and even worse if you lose the CDF base you suddenly have 20 bases with no perimeter defenses. Can't wait to pull that stunt on my friend who "always builds the CDF because it takes care of his defense"

So I put the CDF quite firmly in the "avoid" category.

[Rift]

quote: Originally posted by Blake on 04-29-2001 09:10 AM Be carefull with using "saves", if 80% of your bases don't need perimeter defenses, then you actually didn't "save" anything. Lets face it - defense is generally so pitifull that you are better served building counter-attack units, most players bases probably never get attacked (by ground forces) or if they are the weapon/armour ratio favours the attacker so much that a perimeter defense wouldn't help much anyway. So by building the CDF you could very well "gain" 700 minerals worth of useless perimeter defenses, which equates to a 0 mineral real gain Also the CDF can create a false sense of security, and even worse if you lose the CDF base you suddenly have 20 bases with no perimeter defenses. Can't wait to pull that stunt on my friend who "always builds the CDF because it takes care of his defense" So I put the CDF quite firmly in the "avoid" category.

You have a point, but it only applies from early-mid game...that is, pre-cloaked units. Once your opponents begin churning out cloaked military units, you'll be hard-pressed not to go on the defensive. Also, the attack-defense ratio is only 2-1, and that can be easily fixed to 2-2.5 if you have a perimeter defense and a sensor built in a given base...it even becomes 2-3.5 if you have a tachyon field constructed...so you see, the defender has quite an advantage. As for destroying the base with the CDF in it...that is a good strategy, but experienced gamers usually place SPs similar to it's type (eg.Command Nexus, Virtual World) in well protected bases in the hearth of his empire.

[Ned]

Misotu, The AI never upgrades the reactors on my 1-1-1 + special ability scouts. Also, IIRC, it leaves my Fusion former units unmolested if I create that unit after the automatic reactor upgrade. In contrast, even if I design a lower reactor crawler after a researching a new reactor tech, the AI will still upgrade it at the first opportunity, which seems to be a lot more often that discovering a new reactor tech.

It is quite clear that the designers never anticipated a lower-reactor crawler to be of any value in the game.

By the way, have you ever monitored how the AI builds an SP? It will use crawlers to "rush-build" the SP. It does so by rush-building crawlers and moving them to the SP site. However, and this is amazing!, it never builds an "expensive" crawler, just a plain jane crawler, even though at times it has many times the cost of the crawler in minerals that it can use during the rush build, i.e., 5 or 6 lines of "red" minerals after switching to the crawler from some other project.

As to using unintended "features" of the game in single-player to easily win, I still call this a cheat. For example, in CIV, one could instruct the equivalent of a former to "terraform," cancel, and reinstruct as many times as one pleased in a turn. Each time an instruction was issued, the "former" would execute one turn's worth of forming. By doing this, one could construct any terraforming feature in one turn, regardless of how many turns it would normally require. Any player using this technique could easily win the game, but why bother even to play?