We are on the threshold...

[Kenlon]

Pet peeve time:
The US is _not_ (and should never be) a democracy.


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--
Kenlon

[Vi Vicdi]

The last Democrat who talked any sense was Paul Tsongas.

As you are probably already aware, Mr. Tsongas has gone before his time.

[edgecrusher]

i don't vote. this country was bought and paid for a long time ago. it also has gotten along without my opinion for the last twenty years, it can do with out it for another twenty. ...ALTHOUGH, i have thought about registering just to keep Mz. Clinton(tm), out of my frikkin' state. i actually spoke with someone who was from arkansas, and she said that when Hillary(tm) was there, the already suffering educational system took blow after blow to budget cuts... now, i don't want to get off on a rant here... oh, wait that's dennis miller.

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i've had the poison leak into my skin
and it corroded my heart away

[gnome]

I hesitate to provoke an extension to this political tangent, but to paraphrase Mark Twain... a man who does not vote is no better off than a man who cannot vote.

[Sikander]

Edgecrusher,

I urge you to register and vote against Hillary. Let's get both of those bufoons (the Clintons that is) out of office (and hopefully out of public view) before they can do any more damage to the American public by normalizing this 'victim as celebrity' to 'celebrity victim as leader' trend the media is so excited about.

While some people can grow from experiencing hardship, and even gain a degree of wisdom from it, the fact that someone has experienced hardship hardly qualifies them as wise. In fact, it is more likely that people who experience excessive hardship are fools. There are a lot of street people in this town who have suffered more in a few years than most people do in a lifetime, and some of them are intelligent and interesting people, with a hint of the wisdom of the Fool (The Green Man). While I enjoy our interactions on the bus, I would not consider supporting any of them in their run for Senate, especially in a state where they have never lived. Sympathy is a poor excuse for judgement.

[edgecrusher]

but, if we, the public elect dishonest, incompetent people into office, who do we have to blame? nobody but our selves. politicians don't suck, the public does. another reason i don't vote is this: i have nothing to do with the mess that someone else is creating, and as soon as i cast a vote, i have to take responsibility for whomever i put into office.

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i've had the poison leak into my skin
and it corroded my heart away

[Vi Vicdi]

So vote Libertarian

Why EdgeCrusher Should Vote Libertarian[*]Libertarians probably most closely match his political philosophy[*]There is no chance one will ever get elected, meaning E/C will never have to feel responsible for the incompetent boobs he helped elect[/list=a]

Just my 2¢ ... remember, I vote Republican because I despise getting ripped off by fancy-talking Liberals, but if unlike myself you don't vote because you don't like your 2 choices, choose a 3rd! (Even Perot or Ventura ... although that's sort of like using the write-in to vote for "Elvis".)

[BustaMike]

By not voting you are just as responsible if not more so.

[DinoDoc]

To all nonvoters who feel thier opinions don't matter: You are absolutely right. Do you want to know the reason why? It is because you do not vote. The politicians don't care about the views of the nonvoter and why should they. You don't help them get into office and you do not have the power to remove them from office so they feel no responsibility to represent your views. If you actually got off your butts and participated in the political process you might actually be able to effect change.

[edgecrusher]

it doesn't sound like politicians care about their voters in the first place

quote: "I will not let my position be swayed by the wants of the people. Instead, I will govern America based on the principles of the republican party."

as butsa mike brought up, mr bush doesn't care about his voters, niether does that dude who doesn't like cheese. as for presidential elections, the public doesn't even decide who goes into office, the electoartes do. the us is government is in the the top three for the most corrupt organizations in history, right bhind china, and the catholic church. i'm sure that most politicians do go into the job with good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with campaign slogans.

also, most politicians are lawyers, and laywers are almost always up to no good. also, politicians should listen to me, even though i choose not to vote: i pay their salary. I pay almost a third of my earings to uncle sam, and aunt York. that's alot of cash that i could have in my hands, but is now whisked away because the house next door needs another welfare check. meanwhilst, my neighbors eat better than i do, have nicer clothes than i do, and ware ridiculous gold jewelry. it's beople like this who really irritate me. but libertarian sounds like a plan....

[Alinestra Covelia]

quote: Originally posted by BustaMike on 02-07-2000 07:41 PM ... but America could do much much worse. WORSE = GEORGE W. BUSH

Maybe, maybe. But don't forget his dad's close friend, Mister D Quayle.

quote: "I believe the American people is supportive of me." - people is plural buddy

Not always. If you mean separate individual human beings, as in "Many people = pedantic", then you are right and it should be plural. But the usage of nationality implies differentiating this race from, say the Antarcticans, so you can legitimately use a singular.

quote: Upon being questioned by a reporter to name the four leaders of four terrorist nations George W. Bush could name none.

Can you? Could George Washington? Can I? I definitely know the answer to the final one of those is "no". Can John Doe?

quote: And finally... "I will not let my position be swayed by the wants of the people. Instead, I will govern America based on the principles of the republican party." - Let's have a look at that first sentence. HELLO! We live in a democracy, a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Many foreigners have a lot of difficulty understanding that central axiom of US democracy, and with good reason. If you stop to really ponder that saying, it sounds much more egalitarian and enlightened than "we're the rulers, you're the ruled", but what does it actually mean?

"We are some people, we are elected by some other people, and we make decisions to aid [or otherwise] yet more people" is perhaps the best direct paraphrase I can do.

Surely it cannot mean the same body of people in all cases...whilst that would be nice, in a country of 200 million free citizens, it's not possible (and rather lengthy, I'd imagine).

quote: So, if by some wrotten chance it were to come down to Gore vs. Bush I would hope that Gore would win.

I commend you: you forwarded a truly transcendental argument to an age-old question, yet you applied it only to an ephemeral and contemporary situation. Rather like one might pick Shakespeare for Germaine Greer references.

As an expat USer myself, I have seen enough of world governments to know that most rulership will fall short of ideals somehow, and it is important not to take anything for granted.

Let's hope that George W Bush can spell "potato" correctly on primetime TV, though.

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"In all creation, there can be no task more onerous or tedious than that of playing God." - Stephen Fry, 'The Liar'.

[DinoDoc]

quote: Originally posted by edgecrusher on 02-16-2000 11:39 AM niether does that dude who doesn't like cheese.

You watch too much TV.

quote: as for presidential elections, the public doesn't even decide who goes into office, the electoartes do.

Can you name me one time in the last 100 years that the person who lost the popular election still managed to become president?

quote: the us is government is in the the top three for the most corrupt organizations in history, right behind china, and the catholic church.

And do you know that you hold the most powerful weapon in hands that can change that? Do you know what that is? It is your right to vote.

quote: i'm sure that most politicians do go into the job with good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with campaign slogans.

Vote out the ones that no longer serve your interests.

quote: also, most politicians are lawyers, and laywers are almost always up to no good.

This is a logical falacy.

quote: also, politicians should listen to me, even though i choose not to vote

If you don't vote politicians really should not care what you think. They have no reason to care. Do you think the police officer cares when you tell him that you pay his salary just before he give you a ticket? If you don't vote, you have no voice nor do you have the ability to affect change?

[Buddha]

I just have to say that this is a VERY interesting thread, goes from AI to politics to libertarians to George W.
My 2 cents..
What legitimate claims does this man have to be president? Would you elect John W Doe who is not related to a president? If it werent for his father he would not have any wealth, this is a person who basically capitalized off the fame of a relative. I just don't get it.

[BustaMike]

No I can't name the leaders of all the terrorist nations, but I'm also not running for president. I think that was actually George's response to the reporter... "Well, can you name them!?"

As far as the plural thing goes, it sounds wrong to me, and Newsweek made fun of it, so I assume it's wrong. I'm no grammar major mind you so I could definately be incorrect.

BTW... I think I spelled rotten wrong. Wrotten, LOL. Well that was wreally gwreat on my part.

" mr bush doesn't care about his voters "
-edgecrusher

Get real. Of course Mr. Bush cares about his voters. He wants to get elected doesn't he. I think this was just a slip up on his part. He probably meant that by electing him, the people would get a Republican president that would run the office based on Republican ideals. He is assuming that by electing him the people will agree with what he decides later.

"the public doesn't even decide who goes into office, the electoartes do."
-edgecrusher

This is not true. Each state casts all of it's electoral college votes toward one candidate based on who got the majority of the votes in that state. Originally, the electoral college was created because America's founders felt that the people were not informed enough to make competent decisions (maybe still true, based on edgecrushers comments I'm almost glad he's not voting) about who should run the country, so the electoral college, a "smart" group of citizens would tally the popular vote and then cast their votes based on that with the ability to go against the public if they felt the decision was unreasonable. In US history this has never happened. The electoral college always votes based on the popular vote.
This system probably needs reworking. It should be based on popular vote and not the electoral college. Theoretically (I forget the exact numbers) it is possible for a candidate to lose with over 60% of the popular vote. For this to happen the winner would need the majority in the 14 (I think it's 14, could be slightly larger) biggest states (California, Texas, NY, Mass, etc.), thus getting more than 50% of the electoral college and winning. Even if the other candidate had 100% of the popular votes in all the other states, he/she could still not get enough electoral college votes to win.

I can't remember the name (maybe Harding?) but it has happened once that someone lost the popular vote and still won.

Back to the voting thing. I've been thinking about it. One vote out of millions does seem insignificant. I justify it's importance this way. By voting you are not just casting one vote. Unless you are extremely secretive about it, you will influence the people around you possibly getting them to vote (if they're friends, likely for the same person as you). These people will in turn influence others. Votes count a lot more than you might think.
Also, if you still don't feel voting for pres. will make any difference, at least vote locally. I promise your vote is extremely important on a local level. In Mesa, AZ a proposition came up last year to build a brand new football stadium/convention center complete with recreation commons (parks ha ha), shops, and even a small lake. The tax to build this was insignificant compared to the hoards of revenue it would have brought to Mesa, a city really with nothing cool to show for itself except that it's next to Phoenix. Before the ballot, a paper interviewed 500 people and asked what they're votes would be if they had to vote that day. 74% would have voted in favor of it; however, come voting time the proposition was killed not by a little but by an overwhelming majority. 10-12% of Mesa's population is senior citizens. I'm not trying to be biggotted or prejudice in any way, but I've noticed that old people at least here are against any new tax no matter how good the returns. 14% of Mesa voted. Of that 14% over half were senior citizens. If even 10% of Mesa had gotten off their lazy asses and voted (myself included) the proposition would have passed. This is why voting is important!

Damn, I feel like I just wrote some essay on US patriotism or something. Better go smack myself.



[This message has been edited by BustaMike (edited February 17, 2000).]

[edgecrusher]

uh... honestly, the last couple of posts have been a devil's advocate to a few things, and putting my own brand of stupidity and sarcasm into it. not all of the opinions were mine, in fact i borrowed heavily from a comedy routine from george carlin. admittedly, he did it alot better.

but it does puzzle me why it is possible for the president to lose the popular, but win in the electorate race. it has happened, and in the last 70 years. the brutal fact of the matter is that there are many people who think like my above posts. i have a very dear freind that does. and that's what we're up against. the ignorant. people who are full of themselves and crap. If it were possible to remove politics from the system, i think things would improve. Political Correctness has become a way of life with us.

BustaMike is absolutely right. this argument starts at the local level, which i have, in fact participated in, and even gone to some of the debates, etc. for my City and pestered the candidate that i didn't like, and praised the incubent.

From down here at sea level, it's quite easy to look up to Mount Olympus and point fingers, but until we find a better way, we'll just have to put up with it. and we got it good, compared to others...

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i've had the poison leak into my skin
and it corroded my heart away