SotHB alternate bee-line

[livid imp]

Ogie, let me see if I can clear this up.

Pre-FM I prefer to attack incoming (as in attacking my base) to get the +50% bonus for attacking during psi combat.
Net bonus to me +50%

Post-FM without trance I prefer to attack to get the +50% bonus for attacking during psi combat. Minus the 30% plenty under FM.
Net bonus to me +20%

Post-FM I prefer to defend against worms assuming I have the trance ability. Worm attacks +50% vs my trance +50% and base bonus +25%. And by this time it is likely I have a sensor bonus +25%
Net bonus to me +50%

Allowing a worm to attack a non-trance scout in a base results in the following. Worm gains +50% for psi attack. You gain +25% for base defense.
Net bonus to the Worm +25%. Later on you'll get even odds with a sensor.

I understand that worms attack at "half strength" during the early part of the game. So wouldn't that still result in a +12.5% net bonus for the worm?

Balancing out the numbers I'd rather have a +50% than breaking even. Given that the definition of "half strength" isn't clearly defined, I could be way off on this, but this is how I have been going at it. If anyone has a superior model, I'd love to see it.

[Jamski]

Allowing a worm to attack a non-trance scout in a base results in the following. Worm gains +50% for psi attack. You gain +25% for base defense.
Net bonus to the Worm +25%. Later on you'll get even odds with a sensor.

I understand that worms attack at "half strength" during the early part of the game. So wouldn't that still result in a +12.5% net bonus for the worm?

No... more like a -25% penalty (-25%(base) +50%(attacker) -50%(earlygame))

-Jam

[Jamski]

Oh and of course we must remember that a run to IA will normally mean a change to Wealth when we get there, for another -25% to the human player because of the Morale hit.

-Jam

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

True there is a window of vulnerability between IA and SotHB (trance) but nothing appreciable that the extra mins can't help you overcome if need be.

[Chaos Theory]

Typical scout patrol attacking a mind worm under FM/Wealth:
Scout patrol's strength is
3 * .7 (-3 planet) * .75 (Very green) = 1.575
Mind worm's strength is
2 * .875 (green) = 1.75

Advantage: Mind worm

Remember that all + and - %s are really *(1+%), and all modifiers are multiplicative.

[Jamski]

I thought all modifiers were ADDITIVE.
Take Base + Perimiter + Tachyon:

(+25%)+(+100%)+(+100%) = +225% when done additive, which is correct.

(+25%)x(+100%)x(+100%) = +500% when multiplied, which is wrong.

-Jam

[Chaos Theory]

Ah, but base defense facilities don't work like that. A perimeter defense alters the base defense mod from +25% to +100% (which is neither of the cases you calculated), and a tachyon field increase the base defense multiplier by 1, which makes +100% become +200%. I don't know what a tachyon field without a perimeter defense does, but I suspect you also get just +100%.

Veteran scout patrol in a bare base: 1 * (1+.25) * (1+.25) = 1.625
Veteran scout patrol in a perim defense base: 1 * (1+1) * (1+.25) = 2.5
Veteran scout patrol in a tachyon + perim base: 1 * (1+2) * (1+.25) = 3.75

[livid imp]

MATH FIGHT!

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Jamski
Oh and of course we must remember that a run to IA will normally mean a change to Wealth when we get there, for another -25% to the human player because of the Morale hit.

-Jam

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
True there is a window of vulnerability between IA and SotHB (trance) but nothing appreciable that the extra mins can't help you overcome if need be.

Doesn't -2 Morale SE only give a -12.5% penalty to offense, and doesn't effect defense? And after you build Children's Creches the negative morale effects disappear, and you still get a +2 morale bonus, meaning you'll defend and attack with a +12.5% morale bonus, and also meaning that factions with a negative morale SE will have stronger units than a faction with 0 Morale SE, who will have disciplined morale units in a base with Children's Creche.
That's at least what my tests showed... (Sucks for Spartans, whose Morale bonus isn't very useful anymore... )

[anarchie]

Another interesting note is that the net effect of morale SE changes on an individual unit also depends on the unit's existing morale. A disciplined (+0%) unit becomes Green (-12%) losing 12% of its fighting power, but a Commando (+37%) becomes Veteran (+25%) losing only one eleventh (9%) of its overall power.

Side note: Any of you got a rack of trophies from actually winning math fights in intermediate school?

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Maniac
Doesn't -2 Morale SE only give a -12.5% penalty to offense, and doesn't effect defense?

Yes a -2 Morale Rating actually does equate a -1 Morale, and thus -12.5% to combat. But morale affects both offense and defense. Unlike Planet Rating which is offense only.

Originally posted by Maniac
And after you build Children's Creches the negative morale effects disappear, and you still get a +2 morale bonus, meaning you'll defend and attack with a +12.5% morale bonus, and also meaning that factions with a negative morale SE will have stronger units than a faction with 0 Morale SE, who will have disciplined morale units in a base with Children's Creche.
That's at least what my tests showed... (Sucks for Spartans, whose Morale bonus isn't very useful anymore... )

The actual text out of the manual regarding Childrens Creche is:
Children’s Creche. Base receives +2 on growth scale and +2 on efficiency scale. All negative morale effects are cancelled for units in base square; instead such units receive a +1 morale modifier. Reduces base’s vulnerability to enemy mind control.

As far as the +++ go with a creche that does tend to complicate things further.
And Spartans are better off in a offensive position where creches don't matter anyway

[Maniac]

Originally posted by livid imp
Yes a -2 Morale Rating actually does equate a -1 Morale, and thus -12.5% to combat. But morale affects both offense and defense. Unlike Planet Rating which is offense only.

Have you actually tested this? I get different results.

The actual text out of the manual regarding Childrens Creche is:

That text is inaccurate AFAIK. There's a bug - at least I consider it one - that gives, simply said, units of a faction with negative morale SE double the morale bonus they should get.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by anarchie
Another interesting note is that the net effect of morale SE changes on an individual unit also depends on the unit's existing morale. A disciplined (+0%) unit becomes Green (-12%) losing 12% of its fighting power, but a Commando (+37%) becomes Veteran (+25%) losing only one eleventh (9%) of its overall power.

And Elites would lose 13% going to Commando, go figure what they were thinking when they setup that scheme.

Originally posted by anarchie
Side note: Any of you got a rack of trophies from actually winning math fights in intermediate school?

The only thing I remember about High School/Jr High is wanting a high-powered rifle and a bell tower. Thank god for college. I think I'm normal now....kinda

[livid imp]

Maniac,

I am at work anytime I post so opening up SMAC to test my theories isn't an option And when am at home I currently don't have a net connection.

So I don't know, but the SE chart definately lists a -2 Morale Rating as a -1 actual Morale
But the text being incorrect doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

[Enigma_Nova]

If the Empath Guild is in-game, it's a chance.

Depends on how the Mod 3 falls.
If I Scen Edit and give myself BioGenetics,
the beeline goes:
(Biogenetics)
Cent Eco
SocPsy
SotHB
EthCalc
CentEmp

On a Random Start, this beeline becomes unprofitable.
If you're sure no-one else is teching the same way...
SocPsy - CentEco - EthCalc - GeneSpl - SotHB - CentEmp

In my current PBEM, I'm doing El Tactic Boringo.
Tech straight to IA, get Doc:Flex off my spartan buddy, start expanding to faraway continents.