Economic Victory

[knowhow2]

You play this game for the first time and you win it on conquest. Why? Because conquest usually is the easiest way to win the game. At least when you just got it and doesn't know all the details. Just build some ground and then conquer or build and conquer, you always need to fend off a few attackers anyway so keep at it and make some more rovers and kick some ***.
After awhile (or quicker if you are good at it), you learn that AtT is the best victory, the one with most prestige and most points(!), so you teach yourself to win a AtT as easy as you can. Well now you probably are GOOD at this game, you need more challenge or a different kind of challenge, aha Diplomatic victory, how can I be friend with every faction and get their votes, especially if you don't want them to defy you as supreme leader. Conquest doesn't stand a chance against diplomatic when it comes to level of difficulty (so why would both victory give you the same amount of points???)
Diplomatic victory is harder than conquest and perhaps easier than AtT (and by its right since you get less points). So what about economic victory? I would say it's harder than both conquest and diplomatic, a lot more harder (still you get the same amount of points minus the cost to corner global energy market) actually.

For example, I am playing a game right now with the intension of going for a eco vic. I am on the verge of finishing it off. The year is 2355 and I just cornered the global energy market. It cost me 24567 cred. So what is it I am paying for? There are a total of 5 factions including mine (peacekeeper). Two of them I have submissive to me (pirates and cult), pact with morgan (4 bases) and vendetta on a "almost-totally-wiped-with-nervegas-alien" usuper. So I could probably "clean up" usuper bases (10) and morgan bases (4, he probably will give up) in less than 10 turns (I got many many killalots = nervegas needlejets - I call them that with a new geno for each new weapon) so why would I normally go for a economic victory. It always takes so much energy that it isn't worth it. For less you can go for a conquest or even AtT. So my conclusion is that Ecomnomic Victory has to be the hardest (well, most circumstancial anyway) and most expensive victory there is.

Do any of you out there like Economic Victory, and if so why?

[knowhow2]

I thought I should kick off this thread by telling you all another example of an economic vitory of mine.


I can't remember which level, but it's either librarian or thinker. Standard size map, oh, it was SMAC and not SMACX (pre-). I was playing Morgan, and 100 or so turn passed, in communication with all factions, and treaty with all factions. 4504 energy cred to corner global energy market, all the other factions were busy beating eachother up to notice me (well, all those, "friendship is a two way ..blabla"). But I didn't get a good rating (118%). Easy, but boring.

[Fitz]

Assuming we're talking Single Player:

I disagree. Diplomatic is the easiest. Here's my reasoning. 3/4 turns before you take the last enemy base (usually more), you typically have enough votes between yourself and your submissives to take the 3/4 vote margin. And as long as you have committed 0 atrocities (I never commit any), everyone will submit to your decision. Therefore, Diplomatic is easier because you can always get it before you can conquer.

Ascent is harder, typically, than conquest, because by the time you get there, you're so far ahead of the AI that you could have easily wiped them off the face of planet. In fact, I usually only win by trancendance when I am taking it very easy on the AI.

Economic is also easier than conquest, in a way. You can almost always pay to corner before you can conquer, since there are so few AI bases left on the conquer trail. BUT, it takes twenty years to go into affect. I usually corner the market routinely once I can get it for a few turns ec, then continue my conquering run. Wichever comes first is the way I win. Usually this is conquer, but if I left the AI alone for a long long time, I may win economic instead. Sometimes that's even before I could have done diplomatic.

I consider the order of dificulty to be:
Diplomatic (easiest)
Economic
Conquer
Transcend (hardest)

[RedFred]

I agree with Fitz on the Diplomatic victory being the easiest and quickest. Personally, I always play with random events on. That pesky energy market crash has thwarted me more than once. I have only rarely won by cornering the energy market. So for me at least, this method of winning is harder and more time consuming than transcending.

[knowhow2]

I still thinks diplomatic victory is harder to win with following arguments:

1. Conquest is easier to learn (childsplay)
2. Some factions will always defy you even if you haven't commit any atrocity against them (happened to me a few times, Sparta when I were UoP, Morgan when I were Hive and a few more)
3. If only one faction defy you, diplomatic victory is unsuccesful. Once that happens, you won't get another shot at it.
4. Submissive factions is considered as part of a conquest. Submissive factions doesn't necessary means cleared path to diplomatic victory (submissive factions can still defy you, also happened to me more than once)

I still would consider Economic victory harder to win than conquest, because you still have to wait 20 turns AFTER you cornered tha global energy market. Usually at this point your military power are so much greater than your opponent conquest would be a matter of turns (4-10).

And yes I meant SP, but I would also like to know (from you experienced people out there) if economic victory ever appears in MP.
[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 16, 2001).]

[RedFred]

Knowhow2, different people's lists may legitimately be different. Some will be natural conquerers, others will be natural builders.

I have had excellent luck with diplomatic victory as a means for a quick end to an unsatisfying game. This is in part due to typically staying with a noble rep. Nevertheless, I have won this way only about a dozen times as I find transcending the most enjoyable way of winning.

[It'sLikeThat]

quote: Originally posted by RedFred on 03-16-2001 04:02 PM I agree with Fitz on the Diplomatic victory being the easiest and quickest. .....

Not for me. I tend to get a wicked reputation.

[Muzta]

diplomatic is easier the Conquest, think about.....you just have to conquer enough enemy bases to get a 3/4 majority

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Muzta on 03-17-2001 07:41 AM diplomatic is easier the Conquest, think about.....you just have to conquer enough enemy bases to get a 3/4 majority

Any thoughts on my FOUR arguments?

[Wiglaf]

I agree with knowhow2. A diplomatic victory isn't easy to attain because there's always a large faction that pops up. The only way to weaken that enemy is to use nerve gas (at least, it seems the fastest way) - once you do that, you lose the chance for a dip vic (I like that). Of course, you could just eliminate the faction, but that does take lots and loads of energy, troops, or whatever, and you may not even win (seasoned pros don't like to hear it, but hey). And odds are you'll be at war with that faction anyway because of the rivalry issue, meaning no votes from them. This coupled with the fact that you aren't always in the best situation makes diplomatic victories quite a challange on transcend.

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

[Sikander]

Very early in my SMACX career, I was playing the Pirates at Librarian level. I was fortunate to have a good starting position, alone in the Southern Hemisphere with good initial position, and a lot of empty land around. I noticed that with my large number of large bases, that I was in position to get a diplomatic victory (I had the Empath Guild also). I gifted some tech for votes (I was already Governor), and voila, a very easy victory. Now for the truly astounding part. I never saw or was seen (as far as I can tell) by any of the AI factions. Nothing close to this has ever happened again, and I'm sure that the difficulty level had a lot to do with my lack of contact. I guess in a way this game was a builder's dream.

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Sikander on 03-18-2001 07:57 PM Very early in my SMACX career, I was playing the Pirates at Librarian level. I was fortunate to have a good starting position, alone in the Southern Hemisphere with good initial position, and a lot of empty land around. I noticed that with my large number of large bases, that I was in position to get a diplomatic victory (I had the Empath Guild also). I gifted some tech for votes (I was already Governor), and voila, a very easy victory. Now for the truly astounding part. I never saw or was seen (as far as I can tell) by any of the AI factions. Nothing close to this has ever happened again, and I'm sure that the difficulty level had a lot to do with my lack of contact. I guess in a way this game was a builder's dream.

well when you put it this way then I can hardly disagree......

[This message has been edited by knowhow2 (edited March 18, 2001).]

[Skanderbeg]

I agree economic victory is the hardest way. I always play with random events on, on huge maps (which means more bases to pay for), I prefer not to run FM and Wealth, and I like to spend my money for rush-buildings. So no way to me to save 24.000 energy. I never have won with economic victory.

I have won one game on transcendent with diplomatic victory, with the Data Angels. I had two pactmates, which loved me very much, because I saved them from the Spartans by giving them bases, and submitted the cult. Believers were eradicated early by the Spartans. So only the Spartans voted against me, but I had more than 3/4 of the votes. Astonishingly, the Spartans didn't resist, perhaps because my hovertanks stood one square away from empty Sparta Command.

With Conquer and Ascendent, it is related to map size. On huge map, Ascendent to Transcendence is much easier than Conquer, because of the vast number of bases. In my last game, playing a conquering Morgan, I had 140 bases when I transcendented, and there were still around 50 AI bases left.
Conquering on huge map is a lot of work.

[Wiglaf]

quote: 3. Diplomatic victory unsuccessful if one faction defies you: no, it doesn't work that way. You need a 3/4 majority of the votes, not of the factions.

I'm not so sure about that. If you get 75% of the votes, it says you win. Sadly, if after you close that window one faction decides not to go along with it, you must then ally with the others and win a conquest victory. Now if the game wrongly calculates that as a diplomatic victory is outside of my knowledge, but if it did it would be a very stupid mistake not corrected in the manual or it's readme.

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The fault lies not in our SMAC, but in our stars.
~ Vanguard, February 2, 2000.

[This message has been edited by SMACed (edited March 19, 2001).]

[Sir Hawkeye]

That is Rightly considered a diplomatic victory because you did receive the 3/4 of the votes. It is not conquest because your goal is one specific faction's destruction, no total occupation of Planet. It's not so much an invasion of enemy territory as putting down a rebellion in what is then rightly your own territory. It's not quite pure diplomatic victory, but it's more diplomatic than conquest