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  • #16
    I advocate a mixed fleet for the simple reason that I have seen my expensive best-best be scuttled once too often by some impact ship appearing out of nowhere. If you choose to try to control sea lanes with ships (pre air power) it is a simple fact that more is better. If IODs are available or if the weapon to armour ratio is somewhere near survivability I may build attack and defense ships.

    The other method I use is the attack swarm. This accepts that every ship is vulnerable if the enemy gets the first shot so the plan is to have several cheap best weapon ships travel together. Yes, these ships get killed (but they are cheap) and they invariably then destroy the attacker.


    Once Air Power comes into play there is a whole new dynamic since any non AAA ship near an enemy city can be a sitting duck. So post air power

    1. add AAA and good armour to ships or
    2. use air cover or
    3 pull back out of enemy air range


    Once I have Air Power the ships role in preventing seabourne invasion or probing is somewhat redundant. Choppers and needles do that so much better. The ships role becomes

    1. taking seabases
    2. Sentry duty on the quiet sides of the empire-- essentially a roving sensor to avoid suprises (what I wouldn't give for the ability to build sensors at sea)
    3. Naval bombardment with air cover (preparing to take the base)

    For these roles I am unlikely to put much armour on the ship at all.


    The Naval aspect of this game is quite unlike CIV2. In Civ, that vet battleship was a powerhouse. One battleship could empty a city with multiple attacks and (undamaged) could defend itself with a good chance of survival against anything. I also loved suprising a group of ships with a cruiser and taking out them all but I often thought that Naval power was disproportionately strong.

    In SMAC the idea of seabases gives a new role to the navy but generally I see the navy as a weak sister to air and even ground forces. Without a huge tech lead there seemes to almost no point in the game when a ship has even a 50% of surviving against even the first attack against it. I find the concept of bombarding cities (weakening defenders and destroying enhancements) to be more realistic, but the reality is that naval might has been played down in this game vs CIV.

    Overall I think i like the Smac naval concept better. We all know that the design workshop was a major innovation but here I guess I like the concept of getting away from super units ( In Civ the first nation with a battleship could change the game). The vulnerability of the ships in SMAC, I think, better approximates the vulnerability of ships in real life.

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    • #17
      I build ships from only the best available components . I always build a navy of some proportions as I love grabbing the Geothermal Shallows (and Mt. Planet along) for myself. Repair Carriers are good, just remember to accompany it with a fleet of support ships (AAA/SAM cruiser and several regular battleships(13/6/6)). The carrier should have bombers and interceptors on a 2/1 basis, plus a planet buster if you can manage it(jus' in case). If you have the manufacturing capability, consider bringing along Drop Troops and a sea colony pod. That way, when your task force has arrived at the hotzone (fx the Monsoon jungle), you build a base short distance away from the coast and, when you have emptied an enemy base of defenders w. your bombers, use your front-line base to airlift into the enemy city.

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      • #18
        Bump

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        • #19
          Armored ships are actually pretty cheap, and useful onvce you get fusion and quantum reactors. It's the armored needlejets that are the budget busters though.

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          • #20
            It's not true that there is no way to shelter your navy using terrain. Sea Fungus does provide you a bonus. Carful manuvering around and in the fungus saved the rears of my cruisers more than several times.

            LoD
            I love the tick of the Geiger counter in the morning. It's the sound of... victory! :D
            LoD - Owner/Webmaster of civ.org.pl
            civ.org.pl's Discussion Forums and Multiplayer System for SMAC and Civs 2-4

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            • #21
              IODs come in pretty handy if you're Green enough to get them for free and/or to make them tough enough to discourage attacking. If you park them in Fungus, they are essentially clean, and if the geography is right, you can block off some of your territory by filling up choke points with the IODs, thus keeping out those annoying "friendly" sea colony pods. Insofar as you are really invisible in the Fungus (and it seems that the AI at least can see you), you could hide a few surprises as well - either worms and other nasties and/or probe teams to subvert passersby and perhaps turn them against their former owners.

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              • #22
                Use a large IoD as a designated defender to move with a high firepower no armor foil. You get cargo capcity, defense & high fire power of two kinds. Use the foil instead of the cruiser because it has the same movement as the IoD, assuming you have the Xeno-empathy dome. If you don't have X E D then use a cruiser to keep up with the IoD through sea fungus.
                Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
                Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
                "Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
                From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"

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                • #23
                  WARNING:

                  IoD's are VERY poor defenders once 6+ weapons are around. The AI doesn't do this but bombarding an IoD with a ship results in it defending with about a rating of 1 against the ships weapon rating, this is enough to cause anywhere between 0% and 100% damage, usually about 60% with missile weapon. Once Power 10+ weapons are around IoD's have very slim chances of surviving even one bombardment. The chaos gun on a land based artillary can more often than not sink an IoD in one volley.

                  This applies for all native lifeforms except spore launchers. Also mindworms can only be reduced to 10% health. However Isles and Locusts are killed by bombardment. Upgrade your ships & infantry artillary to SAM and laugh at planetminds puny attack of 20 locusts, 2 SAM Chaos batteries turn such a stack into 1 90% injured locust. Ditto for big piles of IoD's.

                  Against a (smart) human player loading your forces on a Neural Amp enchanced IoD and expecting it to provide defense is sucicide. Even if the IoD isn't sunk by bombardment it's movement is reduced AND it's contents damaged. Even worse the other guy can do this with impunity. This means you should ALWAYS escort your isle with the highest weapon foil you can build (or a big pile of cheap foils which die to protect the Isle). In the end you may be better off to use a cruiser transport and give it high armour, it can still be sunk by bombardment but should take several volleys quite easily and besides - with the higher movement hopefully it wont be attacked at all.

                  IMO Sam, Bombard is invaluable for defense against locusts. Better still a standard Bombard unit CAN be upgraded to SAM using the workshop, and attack in the same turn. Magtubes are great for shuttling them around, and bombard attacks don't suffer "hasty" penalty.

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                  • #24
                    quote:

                    (what I wouldn't give for the ability to build sensors at sea)



                    I actually managed (well not me but my seaformer at auto) to build a sensor array at sea once. Don't know how or why. It was next to a real seabase (not one of them landbases who sunk).

                    It's close to midnight and something evil's is lurking in the dark.

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                    • #25
                      quote:

                      Originally posted by johndmuller on 03-20-2001 05:18 PM
                      If you park them in Fungus, they are essentially clean,


                      Another thing about IODs in fungus that I stumbled across the other night: if your IOD is sitting in fungus when it attacks another vessel, you get the 3:2 psi combat advantage! This really stunned me and I had to do it a couple more times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Anyone else ever come across this? Is this normal behaviour or another "undocumented feature"?
                      "If you doubt that an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of typewriters would eventually produce the combined works of Shakespeare, consider: it only took 30 billion monkeys and no typewriters." - Unknown

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                      • #26
                        That is very normal behaivour, all native lifeforms get a +50% attack bonus when they attack a unit which is in fungus. Not sure about documented but it always works that way.

                        Pholus Mutagen passes that ability onto your conventional units too.

                        edit: Spelling, good idea not to post at 6:30am.
                        [This message has been edited by Blake (edited March 21, 2001).]

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                        • #27
                          In the above IoD + foil combination, note the the foil would fight an artilery duel, since the IoD is not artillery.
                          Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
                          Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
                          "Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
                          From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"

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                          • #28
                            Maybe I'm missing something, but I noticed my cruisers often disengage at about 50% damage. This permits the cruiser to attack in its own turn to take out the enemy boat. This implies that no armor, best weapon cruisers are the way to go for naval supremacy.

                            As well, if I have it, I also equip all my boats with marines.

                            One additional hint: protect your coasts with naval units on full automatic. They see the enemy approaching and attack first. (This contrasts with naval units on alert, which does not seem to work.)

                            Another hint: When approaching a naval superpower like the Pirates, also keep most of your ships on full automatic. Take them off automatic when you have defeated the enemy fleet and are ready to attack his sea bases.

                            When you do approach the enemies land bases protected with airpower, upgrade some of the ships to AAA and best armor to cover the rest. This is similar to using Aegis Cruisers to protect carriers in Civ II.

                            All-in-all, I like the naval aspects of SMACX.
                            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                            • #29
                              For naval warfare what works in my experience is wolfpack type of strategies. Depending on stage of game you will usually want ships which are both efficient against other ships, IoDs and planes.

                              For escort service of transports you will want a cover that means that some by chance appearing IoD or enemy ship or plane will not take out your transports.

                              Unless you are in a situation where support is a major problem I find it most efficient to have large numbers of cheap specialized ships rather than a few heavily armoured ones. No matter what you fit on a ship it will still be weak against certain types of attack. A heavily armoured cruiser with AAA and marine is not as good against an IoD as a cheap unit with trance.

                              So I usually try to have a bunch - some cheap units out front for cannon fodder with empath abilty to hit IodS and which are no great loss if I am found first. Then some strong weapon with marine and sam ability. If you have a carrier you should have some interceptors and some empaths too.

                              Probe ships can also be used for "advance spotters" they are cheap and require no support. IoDs are good too though a bit slow moving.
                              You keep the more powerfull ships about half movement behind spotters and advance about half movement per turn. This way if you find them you can hit and if they find you they can kill one of your cheap ships and then you hit back.

                              For the same energy a fleet put toghether like this will take out your heavily armored expensive but few in numbers all in one package fleet any time. They may be comforting but they won't win and success in escort duty mainly relies on having enough around.

                              Even if you construct your fleet as clean to not have the support penalty of large numbers and it still does a much better job at keeping the vessels you are escorting much safer by pretty much eliminating the chance that the enemy or some wild IoD stumbles into your transport loaded with units.

                              Subs are also excellent as your avance guard once you get them (pretty much the only thing they are good for).

                              [This message has been edited by buster (edited March 21, 2001).]

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                              • #30
                                *bump* for reference

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