armor on ships

[Skanderbeg]

I am asking me more and more if armor on ships is worth the cost.

I think everyone has the same experience that the AI allways seems to know where your ships are. And on the ocean, You can't hide behind defense perimeters or sensors, so, if the AI ships are in range of your ship, they will kill it, if it has armor or not.

I see that res-armor can be useful as a defense against native lifeforms, but thats all.

I am thinking of building many non-armored ships instead of a few armored, and using them in teams.
If AI kills one of them, there are more around to kill the AI's ship the next turn. Or perhaps, building different types of ships: best weapon no armour, SAM-AAA-cheap weapon-best armor, empath-res6-weapon-trance-3res-armor and using them as combos.

Has anyone tried using non-armored ships and can tell about his experiences?

[Martin Schmidt]

I agree with you on that , defense for ships is extraordinary expensive and in most cases not worth much . I will upgrade only my veteran ships with armor

[cbn]

I often build minimally armored ships. It is my typical strategy when playing Dee and Cha as a complement to an IOD fleet when aiming for naval supremacy. The IODs can be great defenders but they can get to be almost useless attacking 3r trance ships. So I typically place a few best weapon, no armor ships in the fleet. The Iods defend (and are replaceable if they lose) while you get full benefit of the attacker. If you can get the Neural Amplifier the IODs can be very hard to kill.

Because of cost it is also beneficial to build more, specialized ships than fewer, more-expensive ones (depending on support issues). As you point out, the disparity between weapon and armor cannot really be remedied at sea. A best weapon, best armor unit remains very vulnerable (and was expensive) such that you almost want escorts to defend the thing. What would be the point of that?? If the thing can't defend itself why bother to heavily armor it? I mean I can see escorting transports or carriers since they have an extra strike value but here your best-best has no more offensive capability than best-worst.


All that said, most of my ships end up with some form of armor. It seems that the stuff gets cheaper as you go along and my current favorite is the 3r (and perhaps trance ability)variety to beat the native life. I do find this useful when popping pods alone although sending two low armor ships with empath weapons can also ensure surviability and net some cash to boot.

naval strategy for me seems to be a matter of specialty ships and I generally consider that they are all so vulnerable that they should be expendable. One breed of ship I do like is the AAA ship. This one seems to have a fair bit of value in covering against air attacks. I tinkered with SAM ships but don't see them as very effective (Air superiority choppers rule!!)


I see Smac as much less of a naval game than say CIV2 was. In that one it seemed that attack value almost always equalled defense value. In Smac/x naval warfare is generally determined by who gets to fire the first shot. It seems that the only way to beat back the AI is to have enough attackers around to get the one that got you.

[WhiteElephants]

I've found that best armour AAA deters the computer from swooping out of the skies and wiping out my fleet as it approaches. A specialized case, but nonetheless valuable. I also imagine that in multiplayer games people would tend to build best weapon choppers which would have the ability to anihilate an unarmoured fleet in one turn from a fairly decent distance.

[niteowl]

I usually go for best weapon, minimal armor (2 or 3 stages down from current best), add deep sea radar (knowledge is power) and the deep pressure hull - effectively making it a submarine (harder to locate by enemies).

[Mars_Col_44]

AAA and clean reactors are a must for me. I have been burned before by not having AAA. Each post above has valid points. I remember a post recommending a mix of ships: some ships with best armor and low weapons, other ships with best weapon and little armor. The armor-heavy ships can complement the weapon-heavy ships. I have noticed that Photon Gunboats (4-5 AAA) have a better chance of survival than my Tachyon Cruisers (12-4 AAA) ... against Miriam's chaos cruisers 8-3 (and her +2 morale modifier!). And photon gunboats are a lot cheaper.
[This message has been edited by Mars_Col_44 (edited January 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Mars_Col_44 (edited January 19, 2001).]

[Sprayber]

Has anyone ever had a decent naval opponant?
the closest I have come to was against Lal. I was the Pirates. Most of the time the computer just builds foils with the occasional larger ship thrown in. I like the thought of massive fleet battles but SMAC is more air and land orientented.

[RedFred]

I confess that I usually put armor my ships. But when I do remove the armor on some ships, I also build the minimal weapon & maximum armor ships to travel with them. I feel safer with the good armor and it comes in handy as the first unit in a newly captured city.

[Velociryx]

::sheepish grin:: I arm and armor everything to the teeth....prolly not as efficient in the long run, but like RedFred, I just feel better with that added security....

-=Vel=-

[DogberryMan]

I'm with Vel... as much armor as your tech permits combined with the best weapon. The reason I do this is that in SP there is not a need for a huge navy so the more expensive ships are not a big deal to me. Now if I had to build 30 of them I would probably reconsider...

------------------
"Are you good men and true?" Much Ado About Nothing, Act III, Scene III

[Jasonian]

I find armor only useful on ships when you are fighting against an opponent with a much lower tech level then you (i.e. your armor is better then his best gun). Oh, and the AAA anti-needlejet thing helps too.

I once fought the pirates as the cult, and the pirates launched several devious attacks that started an all-out naval war. They actually overran a few of my settlements due to their superior numbers.

[Lord Maxwell]

Navy? Hmm, you mean you actually use the water for anything but pod-lotto?

I find that the leap from navy to air power is just too short to necessitate the building of a huge navy. I pop pods, sometimes ferry invaders over, and send out the occasional sea base when distances grow bigger. (Ie, no need for carriers, if you have a sea base every 16 tiles up to one 8 tiles from the base you want to take.)

Hmm, the pod popper gotta have protection, the sea colony pods too. Hmm, I actually build a navy come to think of it, but there have never been any early 19th century style naval battles in my games. (In SP you totally dominate the AI, and in MP you avoid building coastal bases as much as you can, as the marines always takes em otherwise.

I usually build empath cruisers, transport cruisers, best weapon cruisers, best armour cruisers. I make almost everything clean. Every time a build que runs empty it builds a rover supply crawler, if I don't have 5+ stocked up for the next Secret Project, otherwise it builds another clean former, or a clean military unit. (Usually on the biggest scale it can complete in one turn, then it gets upgraded to whatever it really should be.)

Pre-cruisers I just use empath gun foils to pop pods, and ignore the possibility for alien artifacts. (Unless I am miriam, then off course I need em.)

MP naval battles are severely hampered by the fact that the attacker wins.

[Sikander]

I don't build much navy due to the limited ability of naval forces to project power inland, and the ease with which air power can project power over land and sea. I will usually build a 'transort popper' to scout for and eliminate enemy transports heading to my continent before I get airpower. I will also build probe foils, transports and a few best/best AAA escort cruisers for those times when I cannot escort my transports with aircraft. Every so often I will build aircraft carriers to provide global reach (usually to eliminate Planet Busters). I use carriers as more or less stationary bases which allow me to ferry aircraft to the battle zone by providing refueling services for the waves of aircraft production that I send toward the enemy. I just build enough carriers to make a chain to the point of impact. I tend to use aircraft like ammunition in this instance, and attack until death. This leaves room for the next wave off attackers on the deck of the carrier.

[The Commodore]

You want big navy battles?Try Pirates/Spartans/Progenitors/Hive. They tend(depending on the start)to expand like a plage on water.(You can make a watery map.) I find that the best defence is a good ofence, so I make high attack/low defence ships. Still, later in the game, if I get the MCN,I'll put psi armor.

P.S.:Isles of the Deep are the top navy units.

[The Commodore]

oops, sorry, double posting...
[This message has been edited by The Commodore (edited March 14, 2001).]