The First Base

[It'sLikeThat]

Assuming that "look first" is on, is it worth it sacrificing a few turns to look for an ideal base location, or should you just build the moment you land?

[RedFred]

I'd just plunk it down unless something obvious happens, like being able to be a port city by moving over one. SMAC seems much more reasonable in giving you decent random starting tiles to work than Civ. Unfortunately, the spacing between you and the bad guys, particularly in SMACX random starts, is not as good.

At Transcend level you get a couple colonies, so especially if the area you are in is ho-hum, you can head off in opposite directions for a turn or two before building your cities.

[It'sLikeThat]

And in the case of the pirates? 'Cause sometimes they start in the middle of the ocean. Although land is just a turn away, that particular land is either:

(a)full of fungus, including the shelfs
(b)rather boring (no bonus resources, landmarks, etc)
(c)next to Yang/Marr/any other faction with a tendency to ICS.

So what should one do in such a situation? Sacrifice a few more turns? Is there time? And what if it's an MP game? Humans are much much more good at exploiting the little extra time they get.

[RedFred]

Pirates are a special case for sure. The game will always start you with the sea colony pod. Now that is irritating! Click on your skimship and move around with that first. You may find a good spot in year one that way. You can cover a lot of territory moving 4 rather than one, so you should be able to find something decent by 2002 or 2003 at the latest.

My experience with the Pirates starting seed has been that I'll typically be close to a land mass that I can nab the resources off of. (Uninhabited)
I usually build a transport first off and get a few land colonies going early on, but that is just one of many possible strategies.

[It'sLikeThat]

Thanx for the tip!

[knowhow2]

The pirates has to be the most annoying faction of the all, playing against that is. As the pirates always put a seabase just next to your land base (well not next, two square way) and take possesion of your valuable ocean space (ocean kelp alway provides more nut). What should you do? You can hardly start a war against him for that (unless he actully build on youur territory). There are other factions that you might hate more, but The pirates just have to be the most annoying one.

More on to the topic, I would say that getting a base on production as soon as possible almost always beats finding a better location. If you're the pirates then you already have Rec Tanks (PD) so you have some good possibilites already. Start pumping up pop pods instead.

[Sikander]

I would tend to agree that it is better to get producing than to spend more than a couple of turns moving. One exception would be the Pirates though. I find that I really need the HGP to (GA) pop boom with them, and I am unlikely to be able to get it unless I can find a good source of minerals. Thus I will spend several turns moving if I have to. Red Fred is quite right about the skimship, always move it first to scout ahead. Once you place your bases you can use it to scout for pods which you will pick up later when your transports are available. Also, make contact with other factions early on (with the skimship) and trade techs. Early in the game your powergraph ranking as the Pirates will tend to make the AI a good deal more friendly toward you than a typical fast start on land. As the only faction that can travel between continents in the early game you can become a tech broker (by trading your freebie techs at first) and trade yourself into a sizable tech lead.

[It'sLikeThat]

quote: Originally posted by Sikander on 03-14-2001 07:00 AM I would tend to agree that it is better to get producing than to spend more than a couple of turns moving. One exception would be the Pirates though. I find that I really need the HGP to (GA) pop boom with them, and I am unlikely to be able to get it unless I can find a good source of minerals......

With them do you really need HGP to GA? What about the substituting workers with trawlers method?

[Sikander]

I do use significant numbers of specialists no doubt, but the maximum number you can use and still GA is 50%. Even if I'm using all empaths or doctors I will still tend to stall eventually due to regular drones, efficiency drones etc. , especially when I end up with an odd number of citizens. The HGP makes the GA pop boom a lot easier to run. I don't like to allocate energy to psych in almost any case, though I will do so in this instance if necessary. The problem with using a broad psych allocation is that it wastes resources in bases that don't need them, and may not be enough in those bases at the edge of the empire which are often less developed and losing more energy to inefficiency.

The Pirates are especially in need of specialists due to their lower efficiency for energy production. Unfortunately sea shelf squares don't tend to reward the trawler method, as they are most productive when worked (9 FOP!) vs 4 FOP when trawlered. Fortunately those worked squares can each support a specialist as well as the citizen working them, which supports the 50% GA ratio perfectly.

Another bonus to this technique is that you can get an FM like +2 econ by GA-ing while running wealth. Considering what a PIA it is to run FM with a lot of sea bases and transports this can really help out. Psych should be set at 10% or less to make this pay off. If you can't do it at that level, you are probably just wasting energy. Btw, it's actually easier to run an Econ GA this way than it is to run pop boom GA, because you can run Green (+2 effic.) rather than planned (-2 effic.). This should be used only selectively however, as you may well get a better payoff by foregoing the +2 econ for more productive specialists like engineers. Early on, when your choice of specialists is limited it might pay off nicely, especially when you want money and are using a lot of empaths to create that GA. It might also be worthwhile if you are using very extensive energy trawling in the mid to late game.

[It'sLikeThat]

Back to the question of sacrificing the first turns, what if it's an MP game? Would that not set you back a bit?

[Aginor]

A two or three turn lead in MP is NOT decisive. Think of the situation this way - it's a risk/reward scenario where the payoff you get from waiting is totally unknown after about two turns of movement in any direction. If it seems like it just can't get much worse, move.

Always take advantage of any monoliths you find, even if it costs you a turn or two of movement. Same goes for rivers and rolling, rainy terrain. Usually you'll want to compromise and plunk down one pod at or near the start and one pod in range of the river/resource/monolith. Remember that founding one base in 2102 and the other in 2103 is equal (in total FOPs) to founding one in 2101 and the other in 2104.

Note that the Spartans get a lot more mileage out of moving around because of that rover, which reduces uncertainty considerably.

Some general rules for the other SMAC factions - the Hive probably SHOULD move around a bit - losing 1 energy per base is a MASSIVE research penalty over the opening turns and finding a Monolith or River helps with that quite a bit. Miriam loses no Labs by moving around for a couple of turns, which also lends itself to moving. Zak especially should build fast to take advantage of his research bonus. Deirdre and Morgan also should build soon - they can compensate for a bad start with fast Formers and Recycling Tanks respectively. If Lal finds quick credits he can also buy Tanks, so settle fast if you see a lot of pods around. In short, if you can drop Formers or Tanks quickly, it makes sense to settle a bad start; otherwise, hunt a bit.

Precise analysis (the math): If you settle a start with only moist squares, it takes 21 turns for the base to grow as opposed to 11. If you can build Formers initially it cuts that ten turn differential by three to five (depends on if you rush them). Tanks for Morgan come around 2104, so that saves 7 or 8 of the turns. Discounting Labs, Energy and Former use for a moment, the length of time to search is equal to how much longer it will take the base to grow if you settle now. Realistically those factors halve that time, IMO. This math is what drives the heuristic rules above - factions like Morgan and Zak pay a much lower price out of a bad start than Yang and Miriam because they can correct or compensate faster.

[knowhow2]

quote: Originally posted by Aginor on 03-15-2001 04:06 PM Some general rules for the other SMAC factions - .

What about the SMACX factions?

[Aginor]

Beats me since I don't own SMACX. But you should apply the same principles - if a faction can get to Centauri Ecology or Biogenetics quickly (or HAS Recycling Tanks automatically), build fast. If you are facing a research penalty of some sort, make sure you find productive land before plunking down. So from what I know about SMACX, I'd guess that the Drones should probably play like the Hive, but the aliens and Cha Dawn should settle rapidly. The Pirates are probably the most interesting question, but I would tend to say they should wander at least until they find a good spot to build a base next to land (preferably on a Nutrient or Mineral ocean square). Shouldn't take too long with their fast-moving sea units.


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[Ned]

Something to think about with the pirates in the middle of the ocean at start. On dry land, if you set your scout to autoexplore, the scout will move in the direction of the nearest faction. Failing that, it will move towards the nearest pod.

If you start in the middle of the ocean with Svensgaard, setting the foil on autoexplore may work in the same way. So, set it off on autoexplore and follow. It probably will head you in the right direction, at least.

Just a thought.

Ned