Social Engineering

[d=me]

I think that social engineering is poorly designed. Isn't knowledge obsolete to wealth?

[Method]

not at all. what makes you think that? knowledge gives you +efficiency and ++research, and wealth is +economy and +industry, with --morale, which really hurts. +1 economy is really not that much at all. I really only run wealth if I can't run knowledge, or if i'm a faction that it doesn't suit...like the drones.

EDIT, if you think social engineering is poorly designed...gee, i don't want to know what you think of governments in civ...

[d=me]

civ3 is the worst tbs I ever played. Alphacentauri is the best game I've ever played. When I chose the value, I noticed that wealth offers shorter research intervals and more income. Who cares about morale?

[Method]

who cares about morale? people who are at war? people who didn't get the command nexus or cyborg factory? people who are running free market and need to deal with mind worms?

anyhow...I guess it would depend on other things also, like your other SE settings, your faction, commerce, and other such things...Like, if you're the drones or believers, then +1 economy might speed research more than +2 research would?

[Patashu]

If you really think one SE choice is completely superior to another, you can change it in the alpha.txt file.

[Commy]

Yo, d=me, I have to agree. Since I use probe teams, I could care less about morale. The +1 economy and +1 industry are worth it, especially when combined with free market and Eudaimonia

[Chaos Theory]

Later in the game, you might receive most of your income from specialists, and build most of your facilities and units with energy credits. At this point, +1 economy and +1 industry is substantially inferior to +2 research.

[Dis]

I find wealth often gives me the same techs per turn as knowledge, with the bonus of more money (energy). what more could you ask for?

[Commy]

Have to agree with you there, Dissident. The tech rate is usually the same, the only difference is +1 effic of +1 indust, and -2 morale or -2 probe.

[Method]

Ok, well...I can't seem to get a quicker research rate with wealth. Maybe it might have something to do with the fact that the difference between +2 econ and +3 econ is just a commerce rate thing (er, i think at least)

[Sikander]

Knowledge out-techs wealth once your bases are more mature (which reduces the impact of the larger energy in the base square) and if you aren't getting much commerce and aren't reliant on the +1 econ of wealth to get to +2 econ, or conversely are using a lot of specialists to garner labs vs raw energy. Knowledge gives a 20% decrease in the number of labs necessary for each tech, and a small bonus to raw energy due the the increase in efficiency.

Wealth on the other hand can greatly increase raw energy if it puts you into the +2 econ zone and you are working a lot of moderate or zero energy producing tiles like forest (100% increase in energy, or 50% if you have hybrid forests) or farms / mines etc. It gives much smaller boni to boreholes, tidal harnesses, and solar panels at higher altitudes / with echelon mirrors to pump up their energy production. The only way wealth is going to be standing in your way from getting to +2 econ is:

You are Morgan and aren't running FM

You aren't running FM but are keeping bases in Golden Ages

You are the Hive and are running FM but still need wealth to get to +2 econ

(that all assumes that the future SE choices are still unavailable)

How much of that increased raw energy is going to labs depends on your energy allocation and losses from inefficiency. The last factor in wealth is commerce income, which is heavily influenced by what your raw energy output is, how many trading partners your bases have, and how much energy your trading partners produce. I tend to think this factor tends to be a wash vs the increase in efficiency of knowledge.

Wealth is very good in the early game without a doubt, as the bonus to base square income can be as much or more of a percentage increase in energy output as FM is later. The bonus to industry is always nice as well. But the way I play knowledge begins to take precedence over wealth in the mid game, or sometimes earlier if I'm at war. It depends completely on your play style though.

One more note, the University runs into a problem in the mid to late game where they can get up to +6 in research with the knowledge and cybernetic SE choices iirc. As +6 research produces the same benefit as +5 research (a 50% discount on tech prices) it may make other SE choices more appealing.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Sikander
One more note, the University runs into a problem in the mid to late game where they can get up to +6 in research with the knowledge and cybernetic SE choices iirc. As +6 research produces the same benefit as +5 research (a 50% discount on tech prices) it may make other SE choices more appealing.

Has this actually been confirmed beyond the text in the SE screen?

[Dis]

I'm a convert.

Fundamentalist all the way!!!

the main problem with the believers is the 3rd social engineering choice. They can't choose knowledge, so they are stuck with Wealth and Power. Wealth has a morale hit, and power has an industry hit. Which should I choose?

[livid imp]

Well the extra support boost from Power will also give you the 'support as many as you base pop for free' ....or whatever it is called. That is rather impressive with a size 14 base

If you are running FM, then wealth isnt all that important, or running planned to help damage control on the industry rating. But don't listen too closely to me, a Fundy expert I am not

[Flubber]

Knowledge can often bring more tech than wealth in the later game. It depends on the game situation-- The added efficiency of knowledge can be a suprising boost

Likewise I find when I have a vast empire with many many bases that "green" might bring in as much energy as FM despite losing 1 energy per tile by going down from a +2 ECON rating. I guess the reduced inefficiency counter balances the lost energy-- I have never done the mathematics on it . . . all I know is that it seems to work out. Add in that Green is preferable for the Planet rating ( and growth is often irrelevant) and I often find myself in Demo/green/knowledge in the late game

I hardly look at the future society ones since the game is over by the time I've ever gotten to them.