Transcended in MY.2172 by Gaians

[David Byron]

I haven't tried measuring it but I would expect the research bonus facilities to work by adding 50% to a "normal" 100% just as other bonuses work in the game. The two SPs ought to add 100% and NOT double the research. So with 4 +50% facilities and 2 +100% SPs that's +400% for a total of 20 research per transcendi. You are saying this doesn't happen?

[Rusty Nail]

David: This does not happen in Szoszo's save. Check it out. Autumn Green and Flower Preach both have Network node, Fusion lab, and Research hospital. This combo yields 6 labs per trancendi (should be 10 by your model). If I delete one of them, it drops to 5 (doesn't seem to matter which one is dropped). If I delete a second (next turn) it drops to 4. This suggests the following model (1) First facility adds 0% to labs.(2) The next three add 25% each cumulative. This checks out with Song of Planet which has all four, including Quantum lab, and yields 7 labs per transcendi(i.e. bonus 75% of base 4). A new issue arises with Greenhouse gate, which has all four plus Theory of Everything and Supercollider. This should add 8 (200% of 4) to the 7 for a total of 15. But the actual is 29! What is going on? By the model described in your post, we would expect 20. So how do get to 29? Could you look into this?

[David Byron]

It might be good to have a forum especially for these formulae to be held in.... so they are easier to find.

Anyway I downloaded zsozsos 2169 file and he hadn't got transcendi yet but I expect its similar.

I noticed inconsistencies between the declared total economy and the total of counting the commerce bonuses the energy from workers and the energy from crawlers. He was getting less energy than the total. The main explanation was that the crawlers were reporting they were carrying one more energy than they really were (as measured by the drop when they stoped supplying and the amount they said they would supply when the supply order was given). Probably this is a bug with the SE economy 2 bonus of 1 energy to each square not applying to crawlers.

There was one economy point of descrepency left on the city I looked at which I couldn't account for, but I wasn't interested in pursuing it.....

The total economy is then split into energy, research and psych based on the SE % settings. I didn't pursue the rounding details of this either, although in my experience research gets prescedence in rounding and generally rounding to the nearest is the rule otherwise.

So if step [1] is calculating the integral division of the economy into the three parts... what I mean by integral is that no odd fractions from the division are retained.

[2] Add the effects of specialists (these are already integral).

[3] Multiply by the total of the various bonus effects/facilities. These are in units of 25%'s and you always round up. So that, eg 9 psych with a research hospital will become 12. Because of the ordering of the steps adding a doctor would result in 14 not 15. That is (9+2)*1.25 not (9*1.25)+(2*1.25).

[4] This is the step which may be explaining your problems. Reduce the overall figure by the fraction of inefficiency listed in the SE settings. This is done on a city by city basis but Children's Creche makes no difference. Round to the nearest integer.

[5] I'm guessing punishment sphere has a separate step for its halving, based on what others have said. I would guess that if you are producing energy on the production queue it is figured in step [2].

As far as I can see then, yes, all the facilities are cumulative with each other in all three categories and phrases like "the nano-hospital is cumulative with the research hospital" should not be interepreted as implying that it is not cumulative with, network node, fusion labs or quantum labs (or the two SPs) for research or tree farm (etc) for psych.

I can only suppose that zsozso's inefficiency was worse when you were looking at it because his labs were only at -6% in 2169. Or possibly you are not taking into account the difference between the transcendi and whatever you are turning it into -- if a worker, the extra energy, if an engineer the +2 research that the engineer provides?

Do you still get the descrepencies after this? What save file are you looking at?

[Blunderdog]

Rusty Nail -- UBC is the Ultimate Builder Challenge, which you can find in the Strategy forum.
[This message has been edited by Blunderdog (edited February 23, 2000).]

[Rusty Nail]

David: I looked at the szoszo save listed on this thread above on Feb.8,2000, the only one I know of. You are making things too complicated. Remember, the lab% is set to zero, so allocations of energy, efficiency, etc. are irrelevant. You have one transcendi. It is trivial. And you get 6(!) labs with three lab facilities (hospital, network node, fusion lab). Something is very wrong, or I am missing something.

By the way, could you post one or more saves from your Morgan exercise? I am trying that one and I would like to hear more about how you did it, e.g. when do you rush buy, what is the critical path to success, what facilities were built, did you build hab complex, how you handled drones,the AI's etc? There can't be much margin for error.

[David Byron]

Does setting lab to zero mean zero inefficiency for research though? It might apply even if it is not listed. Remember specialists are added in and THEN inefficiency applied. Inefficiency from the SE % split applies to specialists (but the economy loss due to inefficiency does not of course). Try a 50-50 split of the economy and just take off all the workers. See what difference changing a Transcend to an Engineer makes.

I didn't build any facilities except at one base. Dealt with drones through 30% psych initially, then nerve-stapling (for which I had to quit my FM for one turn) and finally Transendi -- very good for research and drone prevention. Oddments of Empathi. I rush built new colonists only. Citizen level allows you to change what you build without penalty so you can rush build at facility cost for both colonists and partially, for SPs. Re-birthing gives you a lot of money to start with. There's a lot you can get away with on Citizen you can't on a real game

[Enigma]

David-
ToE and Supercollider double total labs output. If you have both in the same base it *quadruples* labs output. One game as Lal I had 400 energy before division at HQ, and near the end I was getting 4000 research points. This is with every possible facility, including Network backbone which adds a bonus not dependent on base energy.

Also the two energy modifying SP's- Space Elevator and Longevity vaccine- I am fairly sure they modify income *after* all other calculations are done.

I am not sure what the instructions mean when they say "x is cumulative with y" but it is possible they are saying that the two are not redundant and both function at same time. I am really not sure how the calculations work for labs or econ, I just know that a better infrastructure can really speed things up.

Nail the thing about David's strat that is most important is the energy per base square. A normal base square for a faction with a econ of 0 is 1. Morgan gets +1 energy per base. But if you run FM/Wealth and are governor you get +8 energy per base square, this means small Morgan cities are actually more productive with techs than small University cities. Plus all that econ adds up tremendously.

Morgan really benefits from ICS sprawl because the energy allows him to develop bases. Unlike a typical ICS university base with huge drone problems, Morgan has the money to pay to reduce drones. Of course I am only talking about relatively small numbers of cities, but when Morgan expands it makes a big difference because of all the cash. Playing Morgan like the computer does- miserly saving your cash and building a grand total of 4 bases- is a quick road to flat growth. There is only so much you can build, and rather than build 4 research hospitals in already developed cities it makes more sense to expand and then build tree farms. Morgan has true exponential growth when he starts plunking down infrastructure in those tiny ICS cities.

[TigToad]

Wow... that is one powerful fast transcend tactic you came up with, i just completed my first two under 100 turn transcends using the Morgan expands rapidly on a low difficultry 16x32 map, and can defintely see where the improvement will come from. Even on settler I'm noticing drone riots like crazy though.

I think I figured out why one 'super science city' can't get more than one tech break through a turn. I believe the game gathers up the tech from each city one at at time at the start of your turn and when a b-thru comes you get it, but any tech above that ammount is lost. You can, for example be only a few points (lets say 20) of a tech..get it from a small city, then still get your large tech boom from your Science city. Just observations.

I'm going to continue to see how fast I can transcend, but with Zso gone now, its lost a lot of the fun...

Tig

[Googlie]

^

[cbn]

Bump

[DavidByron]

(toot toot!)