Talent creation

[Ned]

CBN, Thanks. It is amazing that so many have so positively stated how b-drones are handled with the information being wrong.

The one thing I agree with is the conversion of super drones -> drones -> content -> talents is at a cost of two pysch each.

But as to a formula for number of drones, it has to be extremely complicated, unless you just discuss the number at the boundary between warnings. There each base has one drone for each warning.

Ned

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Ned
It is amazing that so many have so positively stated how b-drones are handled with the information being wrong.

Especially me. I was absolutely certain they were appearing in base order, and only in bases above the limit.

However, I'm still not sure I agree with Tau Ceti's comments on male/female drones. However, I was definately looking at the line at the bottom of the base screen, so he could be correct.

Could anyone explain to me the 'fake drones' bug. I don't think I've ever experienced it, but only because I've never noticed drone riots without drones being present. Or am I misunderstanding and it is the other way around (no drone riots with drones present)?

[WhiteElephants]

Fitz -- the fake drones thing shows more drones than there actually are in the base screen. I've noticed this when I use a faction like Yang who uses his police rating a lot. I also noticed this when I was running my bueracracy tests with Miriam who wasn't using a high police rating, but used one scout as police. My best guess is that it has to do with the police rating or efficency, maybe both. It wouldn't suprise me that Yang, being immune to efficiency, somehow shows more drones than he actually has.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by Fitz
As a side note, the f4 command lists bases in foundation order. That's why, if you conguer HQs, they appear at the top of the list right below your original HQ.

Fitz,
IIRC, if I sort the bases by some other criteria by selecting one of the "best base in >category<" bases/categories - lower left of F4 screen, best bases tab - they stay in that order until I select a different sort (opening/closing the F4 &/or base screens and new turns notwithstanding). None of those selections lead to the bases sorted in the age order, so I've never been able to get that back once I've changed it. Do you know of a way to get them back in that age order again?

If the sorting really makes a change in the fundamental order of the bases, it could have other effects too, particularly when you have a prototype being produced in more than one base (where one can make sure that the lagging base comes after the first-to-finish base in the turn order so as not to waste mins when the cost goes down after the proto), and maybe even in drone allocation (although I don't recall having unexpected drone events when I've sorted that list).

[Tau Ceti]

Fitz: You disagree with good reason. According to the PBEM game turn I just finished, my (quite adamant) statement above is wrong. The superdrones were bright red, with male/female status being random.

I was quite certain that I had seen it the other way around in at least one game some time, but until I can recreate it, I must withdraw my assertion. I do, however, believe that it is gender that matters in plain SMAC.

johndmuller: The way the bases are currently sorted does not affect the order in which the game processes them. That is always done in order of date of construction, and you can get that order back by clicking somewhere in the blank area of the "frame" around the F4 screen box.

[Ned]

Tau Ceti, In an earlier post in this thread, I beleive you said that there is a limit to psych useage and that it is twice the base size. I wonder where you got this? What I see is more like three times base size less two. This permits a transcend base with no bureacracy drones to be placed into a state of Golden Age using psych alone. For example, assume a size 14 base, 13 drones and one content (no b-drones). To place this base in GA, you need 7 talents and 7 contents. To get there from the stating point to GA, you need 13 x 2 psych to turn all the drones to contents, and 7 * 2 to make 7 contents into talents. This is 26 + 14 = 40 psych, which is three times base size - 2.

In other words, if you have even one b-drone, you cannot get the base into GA using psych alone assuming the limit is as I described it.

Do you agree with the above?

Ned

[Tau Ceti]

The 2 * base size limit is just experience, plus it is what everyone else has had to say on the subject until your post. Considering that over probably hundreds of games, I have never seen a single deviation from it, I am quite confident that it is correct.

While the calculations in the rest of your post (excepting the limit) seem to be correct, it is a fairly weird situation in that you do not take into account any drone-reducing facilities. If you look at the algorithm I posted in the second post in this thread, the game creates talents second, after removing superdrones but before removing ordinary ones. So all you really need is to get 7 talents. For your example, that takes (6 * 4 + 2) = 26 psych, 2 under the limit of 28. The remaining 7 drones will need to be taken care of with facilities or police (6 drones if you have the last 2 psych as well). So it is not impossible to get a GA even with the stricter limit.

However, it is impossible to get it without the HGP/a Paradise Garden/Clinical Immortality/the Peacekeeper bonus if you have even a single superdrone in the base.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Tau et. al.

The 2* base size thing is probably accurate. As the SMAC engine was revamped from Civ2 the max luxuries applicable in that game was 2* city size. I would be very surpised if it was not also the case in Smac(x).

Og

[Ned]

Thanks Tau Ceti and Ogie. I still think there is something wrong with the 2 * base limitation on psych "usage."

Assume the following:

13 ordinary drones and 1 content (i.e., no b-drones), a rec commons, a research hospital and a holo in a size 14 base. The facilities convert five drones to content leaving 8 drones. It takes 16 psych to convert these 8 to content. It takes another 7 * 2 or 14 psych to convert seven contents to talents. The total pysch necessary, even considering facilities, is 30. If the limit is 28, 14*2, we are 2 short. This indicates that it should be impossible to get a size 14 base into GA using psych and facilities alone at the transend level. However, this does not correspond to my memory.

I'll conduct an experiment.

[Ned]

Tau Ceti and Ogie, You're right. There is a limit on the use of psych at 2 times base size. However, the conversion to talents is not what I expected.

I started with Santiago on Transend, no police units, no facilities. 1 content, 13 drones.

I added a rec commons, a holo and a research hospital.

I did not get 5 additional contents. What I got was 2 talents and one additional content.

I then added psych - 86 in total.

This yeilded a net of 7 more talents for a total of 9. (This is equivalent to 28 psych, or 14 * 2.)

I still had two contents and three drones.

I then changed to Police State. Santiago now had +3 police. I added 1 police unit. This unit converted the three drones into contents. We now had GA.

I then converted to Free Market. The three drones, as expected due to the negative police rating, returned. But even though I had more pysh, I still had the same nine talents and two contents.

Ned

[WhiteElephants]

Ned -- Maybe your forgetting that you usually have a scout in a size 14 base that would act as a police unit further quelling one drone. If that's the case then you would only need +28 psych to turn a golden age.

[Ned]

WE, Actually, I did try police. See the note above on the results from the SE. The apparent problem is that appears to be that the algorithm converts the psych and facilities to nine talents when you only need seven, but leaves three drones that cannot be pacified solely by using just one scout or a police scout. If you are in FM, there is nothing you can do except convert at least one, maybe more, workers to specialist. Ned

[Tau Ceti]

Ned: Your results are quite strange. Apparently, the Rec. Commons, Hologram Theatre and Research Hospital gave you two talents and one worker instead of five workers? If so, that must be a bug. Are you sure you did not accidentally put in a Paradise Garden instead?

As for your calculations, you get the order wrong. The game does not convert all drones to workers first; it converts them directly to talents. So to get 7 talents, you need 26 psych (2 for the existing worker, then 6 * 4 for 6 drones), leaving 7 drones. Then facilities kick in, but it is rather hard to pacify 7 drones with facilities. Commons/Hologram/Hospital/Nanohospital take care of only 6. So apparently, without using SPs, police or specialists, you need to have Nanohospitals and 28 available psych to get a GA in your size 14 city.

[Ned]

Tau Ceti, No, I did not use a Paradise Garden. You might try the experiment yourself just to verify. What I did is start a game, move the unit out of the city, increase its population to size 14 and added forests all about.

Checking drones: 1 content, 13 drones.

I then added rec commons, a holo, a research hospital, a tree farm and a hybrid.

Checking drones: 2 talents, two contents, 9 drones

Set to all Psych - 86 total

Checking drones: 9 talents, two contents, 3 drones

Added techs for police state and non leathal, and created a police scout in the base. Police, with Santiago was +3.

Checking drones: 9 talents, five contents.

If I read your post correctly, pysc converts drones to talents directly. What I take from this is that pysch operates on drones first, and converts them to talents at a cost of four before going on to the next drone. This seems confirmed by the experiment.

Thus the wierd part of this experiment is the conversion of two drones to talents by facilities when they are supposed to only convert drones to contents.

I welcome others to try the experiment to see if they can locate whether the experiment was wrong or, as is often the case, the Datalinks is wrong.

Ned

[johndmuller]

Ned
Interesting that the TF/HF had no effect on the bottom line, only in the intermediate state. I guess that is because their benefits are in the form of Psych (whereas the other facililties act more directly on the drone situation) and when you overkill with the Psych allocation you are basically using the maximum whether it comes from the Psych allocation or the TF/HF contribution.

I am considering the theory that (regular) drones and talents cancel each other out and it doesn't matter how they look on the base display, for example, whether it is (2 talents and 1 drone) or (1 talent and 1 content/worker) it doesn't matter, you are a net +1 in happiness.

In your case, you go from -13 at the beginning
to -7 after RC=+2/HT=+2/RH=+1/TF+HF=+1
to +6 after adding Psych=+12 (the TF+HF apparently was worth +2)

In the previous example (without the TF/HF), you go from -13 at the beginning
to -8 after RC=+2/HT=+2/RH=+1
to +6 after adding Psych=+14

Then you added 3 police to make it +9.

According to my theory, if you had added just 1 police effect, you would have a +7 which should get you a GA since you have a size 14 base, irrespective of whether or not it shows drones in the display. Presumably, the display would show 2 drones in your example, but 2 of them would be netted out by your 2 extra talents beyond what you need for GA.

John