Consensus on Cheating?

[Velociryx]

Good thread! And btw, I'd have to consider the "re-start" thing a cheat, for one specific reason (and I found this out by accident but GAWD it was cool! LOL).

If you restart with Morgan, you get your two colony pods back, your scout becomes synthmetal, you get a former, and you get an extra 100 credits...OUCH! Well worth sacrifcing a single turn for....(and, if you do it again the following turn, you net yourself another hundred credits!)

-=Vel=-
[This message has been edited by Velociryx (edited May 26, 2000).]

[Basil]

Happens to me in SP (SMACX 2). Remember it only happens when you're building facilities, not when you're building units.

[Helium Pond]

I realize that the bug only happens with non-units; units don't switch to "Stockpile Energy" when you're done building them. I started a game as Morgan, went into the scenario editor and gave him the tech for Rec Commons, and had him buy the whole thing. Stockpile energy at this point would generate 1 economy credit per turn. Otherwise, I was making 2 economy credits a turn. I had sixty minerals left as pushed "Turn Complete." At the start of the next turn, I had 62 credits. I did not recieve a "free" dose of stockpiled energy. Am I misunderstanding the bug?

[Helium Pond]

Okay Vel, you've convinced me, I'll add it.

Ned: as it says in the original list, I update that list everytime I learn of a new cheat. That's why it may seem that people are pointing out things already on the list. I added my own message last time because I wasn't sure if editing the original message was enough to make the thread bump to the top again.

I've done a little bit of looking into this "stockpile Energy" bug--does it only happen in multiplayer? I can't get it to happen in single player.


[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited May 26, 2000).]

[Meister Flo]

no, thats exactly how it works.
You did indeed receive 3 income, but spent 1 as upkeep for the new rec common immediately.

[JAMiAM]

The Stockpile Bug can be extended to units, by putting "stockpile energy" into the build queue, after a unit.

Unfortunately, due to the trouble involved in negating this particular behavior in the game (see my threads on this, in both this forum and the Strategy forum) and policing within a multiplayer game, the fix is worse than the bug.

It is better to inform all the players, and let everyone take equal advantage of its effect.

[Helium Pond]

Meister Flo, thanks for setting me straight. How obvious. Me not so smurt. JAMiAM, I agree with you. That's why I kind of feel ambivalent about adding this one to the list. Because, really, what's anyone going to do about it? What do people think (at least, the people who still check up on this thread)? Should it be on the list, or, since it's really impossible to address, should I leave it off? After all, I'm not trying to compile a bug-list, just a list of things that people should agree about before playing MP.

[Misotu]

Regarding the stockpile energy thing. I only found out about this a couple of days ago. The trouble with trying to deal with this is that players have perfectly legitimate reasons for using stockpile energy in the list after a unit. If you don't, the AI will simply build another unit of the same type. It would be easy to miss the fact that you're building too many of them, so I personally like to use the stockpile energy command after a unit and I'd be extremely unwilling to discontinue.

The facilities one ... well. It would just be too easy for people to make an honest mistake and forget.

I agree with JAMiAM. The best thing is to let everyone know that this is how it works.

[MidKnight Lament]

After reading two thirds of this thread I'm surprised that so many people think of exploiting these bugs (and that's what most of them are) as not cheating.

The question is, "Is this in the spirit of the game? Is this what the designers intended?". And in most cases (without going back to look at them too hard) I'd say "no" to both questions.

I'm surprised there's not more people crying foul. Not to call judgement or anything.

- MKL

[JAMiAM]

MKL,

The problem is that sometimes, many competing factors are involved in the decision regarding whether or not a particular "exploitable" feature should be considered a "cheat".

Design intent, fairness, consistency, enforceability in MP...is certainly not an exclusive list of the variables which must be balanced in this decision making process.

For example, consider the stockpile energy bug. For each turn that you complete a facility, special project, or orbital with nothing in the queue, you gain extra energy in the amount that you would have gained if you had the base set to stockpile energy. Thus, on the turn that you complete the production, you gain the use of your mineral resources TWICE. Once for the production, once for the conversion to energy (2:1, min:ec).

Everyone who does not use the build queues does already take advantage of this effect. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of players do NOT use queues. It has certainly been my experience over the course of more than two dozen pbem games that players generally do not use them. Therefore, it is safe to say that most players style of play, and habits, have evolved around the extra energy being available to them, over the course of the many games played.

This effect can easily be extended to unit production, by including stockpile energy in the queue for a base working on a unit. Some have complained about this tactic, yet it is a consistent extension of the default behavior of the game, when making facilities, to the production involved in units. Though it may seem to violate a design intent, it is nonetheless, a coded, default feature, intended or not.

Those who have argued against allowing one to take advantage of this windfall usually do so on the grounds that it is unreasonable that resources should be used "doubly" on the turn of completion, when they are not so available the balance of the turns of production. This is certainly a reasonable argument, from a "realistic" or even aesthetic point of view. However, from a practical point of view, arguing against using the stockpile energy feature is akin to tilting at windmills.

It is tedious bordering on the ridiculous to attempt to deny the use of the effect, even if it does defy the design intent. One must place an item (not necessarily something that you will really want to produce) in the queue for every base. This grants to those who have infiltrator status, information on your future production plans. It also negatively affects the playability and fun of the game to be locked into a unnecessarily tedious ritual designed to bring all players down to the lowest common denominator, that of the player who habitually, and consistently, uses the queues. (Though this sounds insulting, it is not meant so. Only a statement reflecting the range of benefits involved in varying degrees of the use, or denial, of the stockpile energy feature.)

Finally, before players have infiltration status on each other, this feature would be impossible to detect in a pbem game, barring a CMN checking every turn, of every player. Thus, from an enforceability standpoint, it is not an optimal choice to make, to deny the "exploitation" of this feature.

You see? It is not always so cut and dried. Sometimes equal exploitation through the education of the involved players is preferable to declaring the use of an undocumented feature, or even a bug, a "cheat".

JAMiAM
[This message has been edited by JAMiAM (edited June 05, 2000).]

[MidKnight Lament]

I knew this wasn't going to be cut and dried, and was expecting that I was entering murky waters.

Your example is a valid one, and I can see that it's not at all an easy one to fix. However, I can't help but think that there's other examples among those listed above which would be harder to justify. (Not that I'm trying to make enemies here - just stating an opinion. )

Comments like this one seem a little crazy to me though...

quote: Originally posted by kaz on 03-30-2000 09:20 PM If the computer allows it, it's not cheating. That's my opinion on all the so called "cheats."

- MKL

[Q_tip1976]

Usually I'm against the use of most bugs to a players advantage but in the case of the stockpile energy bug I have to say it's simpley best to let it go (At least until it gets patched.) Mostly because of the resons mentioned before. Also the ability to stockpile energy deffinately WAS intended and is a big part of mt stratagy when playing economically deficient (i.e. Hive) factions.

Dissallowing this unfortunate "feature" would also dissallow an important concept and ability in the game. Sometimes you really want to Stockpile Energy after completing your unit or facility!

[Q_tip1976]

Sorry Double Post
[This message has been edited by Q_tip1976 (edited June 05, 2000).]

[Helium Pond]

The Stockpile bug also has a major Pain-In-The-A** factor. Usually I try to play within what I guess to be the designers' intent. But having to watch aevery one of my queues all the time, to be sure I'm not taking advantage of this bug, is just plain tedious. No fun. You have to go out of your way to make most of the other bugs happen; this one you have to go out of your way to make NOT happen.

I agree, though; "if you can do it, it's not cheating" is a silly thing to say. There's nothing stopping you from stealing money in Monopoly, is there?

[Ned]

Since the AI does not use Queues, do they get the benefit of the stockpile energy bug?