Consensus on Cheating?

[EternalSpark]

A "cheat" is somehting like iddqd. And idkfa. And dnkroz. Type in cheats. Anything else is a game fault and need be exploited.

[LoD]

EternalSpark: Have you ever actually read "The Prince"? Because if you were, you'd know that this quote is not complete.


LoD

[Helium Pond]

EternalSpark: would you do that even if you'd agreed beforehand not to? Or would you just never make such an agreement?

[BustaMike]

I play a lot of Quake and used to play Doom. If anyone ever played multiplayer with the god code on like you are suggesting, EternalSpark, I would never play with them again. Only an idiot would consider playing that way fun. It takes away any possible notion that you were playing a game of skill and turns it into a moronfest.

The ends may justify the means, but what are the ends in this case. The ends are a game that no longer requires any skill and is not fun because someone is blatantly cheating.

Although there is no god code in SMAC, there are obviously cheats. Using these, IMO, is the same as using idkfa or iddqd in doom. It shows that whoever using them has no skill and uses the cheats to gain an advantage and attempt to make up for their impotence.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on cheats.

[Q_tip1976]

If I were involved in a MP game and one of the players knowingly took advantage of an obviouse bug in the game (i.e. infinite airdrops) I would be very inclined not to continue playing with them. Frankly I'm rather surprised that their are people argueing that these practices are fair and okay. I'm going to cheat because the game allows me too is a VERY immature attitude. It is something I would expect to hear from a 10 year old.
[This message has been edited by Q_tip1976 (edited April 01, 2000).]

[EternalSpark]

quote: would you do that even if you'd agreed beforehand not to? Or would you just never make such an agreement?

Well, if I agreed not to, I won't. But I would rarely agree to it. I mean, I prolly would agreed on it, depending on some things... its not like every game I'll cheat out my ass, or every game I'll be really pristine. Usually, if I'm getting my ass kicked in a game, and the guy left the cheats on, I'm gonna balance the score out.

quote: I play a lot of Quake and used to play Doom. If anyone ever played multiplayer with the god code on like you are suggesting, EternalSpark, I would never play with them again. Only an idiot would consider playing that way fun. It takes away any possible notion that you were playing a game of skill and turns it into a moronfest.

Well, Quake *is* a moronfest Honestly, I rarely cheat in those games. Just if I'm losing by 50+ frags, and I know I can't do anything, I'll give myself god mode so that they waste their ammo on me.

I don't believe the airdrop cheat is the same as a type in cheat. The type in cheats were added by the game designers to help the Beta testers (I should know, I'm a beta tester) wrk through the more difficult levels. The airdrop cheat was simply something that the game designers f()cked up on. If we don't play using the cheat, there isn't any way the game companies are going to notice they haveto change it.

But of course, if we agreed not to "cheat", I woudln't "cheat" at all.

[Helium Pond]

Well, Spark, that's the whole point. What are the things that people should agree about before starting to game together? I find it hard to believe that we can only come up with six items of contention, but I guess it's possible.

[BustaMike]

Here's a couple multiplayer cheats that are easy to expoit with no one knowing about it, but should definately not be allowed. They both are Hotseat cheats.

#1 - If you have a treaty with another human and choose the demand withdrawal option by right clicking the com menu, the computer, not the player chooses whether or not to comply. Since it isn't possible to declare vendetta without actually attacking in Hotseat play, this basically means that treatied players can never enter each others territories because the computer withdraws for you 90% of the time.

#2 - This one is way worse. In hotseat if you probe another human you are pacted or treatied with they are supposed to be given the option of allowing the transgression or declaring vendetta. Instead of this option popping up on the turn of the player who just got probed, it pops up immediately after the probe action allowing the player who did it to have the poor fool he's probing do nothing. Worse, the other guy never gets a notice of what happened at all.

[EternalSpark]

Talkin' about number 2 Mike just said... if its a probe team operation, ain't it realistic to have the enemy not know anything happened? I woudn't do this cheat, though... I don't think... of course, this is partly good, because I could be pacted with nation A, and we're both fighting Faction B... and we make a plan to use probes to deal damage to Faction B... one of the ways we can increase our probe skill is by sending it to our Pact bro/sis, stealing a tech or something (both could do it from each other) which increase our morale of our probes.

Just thinkin'.

[Helium Pond]

Busta, thanks mightily for helping with the list. I'll add your first item to the list, but I'm not sure what to say about #2. #2 is quite a problem. I'm not sure whether or not I should add it to the list, because I can't think of anything you can do about it. All the other items on the list can be avoided if players agree on it beforehand. But what are people going to do, swear not to probe each other? That's no fun. Hm. Maybe they'll have to swear to notify their victims that they've probed them? I guess I really should put it on the list, but it sure beats me how to address it fairly.

I'm sure this must have come up already in some PBEM games--what are the agreements people have come to on it? BustaMike?
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited April 02, 2000).]

[BustaMike]

It hasn't actually come up in PBEM games yet, oddly enough. I guess I haven't played that many yet. The issue first came up when I was playing a hotseat game with my friends over at their apartment. There's only 1 computer over there so hotseat it is. The only agreement that we've come up with so far is that as soon as the victim finds out it's happening (maybe he'll notice the money being sucked away from him by the Angels) or we just decide to end it we'll stop doing it completely and give the other person warning when a probe action is going to occur. Right now it's just too funny and it's not a serious game so we're letting it slide.

Realistically speaking, this is one of the most vicious bugs I've ever seen and I'm really not sure what to do about it either. Maybe play with a direct connection instead of PBEM is the only answer... but then we get into the messed up combat and time problems and that's no good either.

I see only two solutions, and both are bad.

1. Wait for revision 3 if it ever shows up and hope they fix this. (Ha Ha Ha, revision 3)

2. Agree to warn of a probe team action before hand. There is no way to enforce this because no one would know the difference so this is bad too.

That's about all I can come up with.

[ChrisShaffer]

Most PBEM rules state that you are required to choose "Declare Vendetta" unless the other player has given you prior permission not to do so.

EternalSpark - no, it isn't realistic to not notify the other player. The "vendetta - let off" menu only pops up when your probe team is "detected" pulling off their dirty deed. If you successfully get away without being detected, or successfully blame another faction, the menu doesn't pop up.

[Helium Pond]

Chris: You say "Most PBEM rules state..." where are these PBEM rules?

My opinion on the withdraw troops thing, is that the demand should be made over e-mail, and if the other player is willing to withdraw their troops, then and only then may the right-click menu be used.

As for probing, I'd be for an honor system. Players should agree to notify each other when they probe friendly human factions.

[Helium Pond]

I learned of two other cheats, which I'm adding to the list. They'll be #9 and #10:


9) Recalling: cancelling a Pact with another faction for the sole purpose of bringing home units in their territory. (I would have put a half-asterisk in front of this one, if I could have, because I think this is a cheat only if you do it with a human player, with whom you could be colluding. If you do it with the AI, it may be very hard to re-make the Pact, so you're not getting something for nothing.)
10) *Telepathy: communicating with other human factions before you've actually met them.

[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited April 05, 2000).]

[ChrisShaffer]

quote: where are these PBEM rules?

See the default rules at ACOL http://www.an.i-dentity.com/ac.cgi/rules for one example.