Is this a cheat?

[VoodooChild]

To the orginional topic:

I personaly would frown on switch tactics for SPs. The early SPs can be started way before someone gets a chance to infiltrate factions and know what they are capable of producing. So I will say that I have no problem with someone keeping a built SP going until a new tech arrives.

Now while I agree that if you have nothing better to do, then build a crawler, but there are times before IndAuto that you may want to start a project before the tech is available. Again I would frown on this in MP

Now I don't play MP, so all of this is mute, but that is my 2 credits worth.

Now for the issue of forced settlement:

This like any other tactic can be exploited for full effect. All you would need is one base with a forested nut special cranking out colony pods to populate an entire empire. The cost/loss ratio is nothing when you consider how much time it take to naturaly increase population in a size 4+ base. All you need after that is the WP and you should have no problems gathering enough food to feed the masses

[mark13]

To be honest, I have never considered switching projects cheating, for the simple reason that it has been an integral part of the game design since civ2 had its heyday. If Firaxis wanted rid of this feature, they could certainly have done so by now....

[Misotu]

The point about MP is that you really do have to draw the line somewhere. This is an extremely complex game, and there are sufficient, undisputed bugs which people must avoid (multiple drops, demon boil etc) without having to start introducing complications for "purity" reasons.

Fact is, the game permits you to switch between SPs. Now whether some people approve or not, that's what it does. So we live with it and - since it's there - we exploit it. Changing that would make the game a different game - what, you're going to make it OK up until the point where you know what your opponents are doing? Supposing I don't bother to infiltrate then, will I be able to switch projects happily for the rest of the game, while anyone who uses probe teams, builds the Empath or becomes Governor has to stop???

Sorry if I sound tetchy, but I play MP on two different boards and they each have different rules because of varying sensitivities. It is the bane of my life trying to remember what is permitted here, and what will get you chucked out there. Pointless nonsense most of it - the game is as it is.

The stockpile energy bug ... well, I'm not even going to go there. Suffice it to say two boards, two different rulings.

One of the most ridiculous areas is Design Workshop upgrades. Now, as far as I know, you can upgrade units individually for one price, but it costs you a move. You can upgrade all your units of one type through the DW - but it costs you more per unit, you get some damage healed and you don't lose a move. So it seems to me that the DW upgrades are most definitely part of the game and have been designed to work differently. However ... Apolyton has ruled it a "cheat" in MP. Why? Because it's hard to defend against.

Well goodness me. So are planet busters and nerve gas air units (in spades). So perhaps we should make it a cheat to build those too? How about simply making it a cheat to have more attack units than your opponent? Or maybe we should ... um

... gulp ...

... well, I think you can tell where I'm coming from. I'm going to lie down now and look at something restful

[Misotu]

VoodooChild: In the majority of games I play, it takes no time to get to a 4+ size base, MP or SP. Most factions can pop boom quite simply with planned/demo/creche and Mark13 seems to do rather well with his golden ages ...

When I read your post, I wasn't quite sure whether you were saying colony pods were better used to found colonies or to add pop to an existing colony?

[Provost Harrison]

I second Mark on this point, I, too, have done the mineral accumulation on projects since the original Civ itself; and I have just considered it a part of the game...

[VoodooChild]

Colony Pods are better used to find new bases, but there are times when you will want to stop expansion and do other things. Typicaly I will expand up to the first warning then work on my infrastructure in preperations to build a couple of SPs. The other bases work on prototyping or other activities. All of this happens way before I have the tech to pop boom or the improvements in place to make it worth while.

But I could have my newest base dedicate itself to just building colony pods, and selectively force boom my other bases. There is very little turn loss since I am making one of my bases more productive at the expense of another, and it doesn't take away that much to churn out CPs. And as you said, its takes no time to raise pop in small bases.

There are other loopholes in the game, that if you wanted you could play them for all they are worth (coverting probes into speeders without Doc:Mob). Firaxis has known about these loopholes and has done nothing to correct them in an expansion and 4 patches between the two games, so does that make them playable?

There is no right or wrong answer here. Its your game, play it anyway you want to. When you do step into the MP area, set up the ground rules with the players involved, and enjoy.

Cheers

[Misotu]

But ... if you don't have the improvements in place to make an ordinary pop boom worthwhile, why would you want to do an expensive pop boom by building many colony pods

I can't agree that there is very little turn loss. On the contrary, if you expand to say 9 bases, before your first warning kicks in, then you are developing only 8 bases in terms of infrastructure while the ninth is very slowly building colony pods to little or no purpose. Given how easy and fast pop booms are for most factions, why would you want to sacrifice more than 10% of your infrastructure to achieve a few more pop a few turns early? Before, in fact, it's worthwhile?

As you said, all you are doing with each pod is making one of your bases more productive at the expense of another.

In any event, this early in the game we're talking well below hab limits. And if you're dividing your pods between several bases in your hypothetical situation, this forced pop resettlement probably won't contravene anybody's rules - you'll be lucky to build that number of pods before you reach orbital improvements

Your newest base will build CPs very slowly indeed - how many minerals will it have available before you have the techs to pop boom? Pre-pop boom means you don't have ethical calc or planetary networks - so no Planned and probably no Wealth, certainly not both - and then you almost certainly don't have crawlers to boost your mineral production. So in all seriousness, it isn't going to be terribly effective or worthwhile.

quote: Originally posted by VoodooChild on 10-31-2000 09:20 AM There are other loopholes in the game, that if you wanted you could play them for all they are worth (coverting probes into speeders without Doc:Mob). Firaxis has known about these loopholes and has done nothing to correct them in an expansion and 4 patches between the two games, so does that make them playable?

There is no cost involved in modifying a probe team to get rovers without Doc Mobility and the benefits are huge. Pod booming, on the other hand, is an extremely expensive exercise with debatable benefits, as we have seen here. I don't think this is an appropriate comparison.

[RedFred]

I'd like to relate an odd event that happened to me many moons ago. I call it the SMAC diet. I haven't tested this in SMACX; it happened to me in SMAC.

AI Lal freely entered into a Pact with me. The next thing I know he is firing probes my way stealing tech. I broke pact and went to war with him over it. The first two cities I take over have 9 pop, Lal's max before hab complexes. Both bases have virtually no infrastructure. I am busy fighting a war so building the habs is not a priority anyhow. Some years pass, I can't remember if it was ten or twenty and then both bases shrink to size 8. Another similar period passes. Then both bases shrink again to a slender size 7, my faction's max before hab complexes. The base artwork also switches to my faction's.

It is a known fact that you can exceed the pop limit by adding a colony. But has anyone checked to see if you can keep that extra pop? MariOne, you have no worries about me, for one, trying this strat. I am not sure if it should be admissible or not, but I believe the tactic is one of dubious utility.

Here is another odd tale, my games are full of them.

This time it is late at night and I am playing out the "get every SP in the game" challege. I have them all so far including the ever-so-handy EG which allows me to monitor the AI factions' progress on SPs. One faction gets within a turn of completing an SP so I rush mine knowing full well that a tie goes to the human. I win. The AI faction switches to something innocuous, leaving a big pile of red bricks in their build screen. During my turn I swap techs with that faction. During that very same turn that same faction switches without penalty to the new SP. If that isn't a cheat, I don't know what is.

So in my opinion, there is absolutely no way that it should be a cheat for a human to switch SPs when the evil AI not only does it, but does it in a way that I consider to be cheating.

[RedFred]

Sigh.

So that means that you agree with my point, then?

[Fitz]

Yes. I do not consider it a cheat to switch between SPs, and I don't consider it a cheat to continue building a SP after someone else has completed it.

[Fitz]

I thought it was a well known fact that the AI can switch production without penalty.

[Slash]

since we are on the topic "is this a cheat?" i've got another one for you regarding the use of formers.

1) Normally you can not terraform Mt. Planet (at least you can't do anything to the center tile) with just the simple keyboard commands (i.e. s,m,f,r....). However if you use the more complex commands (i.e. Shift-Control-s or Shift-Control-m) you can. If you can do this in one case and not the other is this a cheat?

2) When you put your formers on "auto" they can build Sensors in the ocean and at the center of Mt. Planet. Neither of which you can do manually. Cheat???

3) I tend to put sea formers on "auto" a lot ( i am way to lazy to figure out what I want to do in the ocean anyway.) I noticed that when the auto formers raise the ocean floor that it doesn't cost you anything. Raising the ocean floor is normally really expensive so getting it for free seems like a cheat to me.


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Anything to stupid to be said is sung.
The way to become boring is to say everything.

[mark13]

Hi Slash,

Not that you should be automating formers anyway, they are so inefficient it's laughable, but what you're describing.....in SP I would not regard it as a cheat, as the AI also does this, but in MP....uhhh.....it probably is. Although that is just my humble opinion, of course.

Raising the sea floor for free....again, the same rules apply, IMO. In SP, fine, the AI does it too, but not MP....

Of course, it is really up to you and your playing partners what set of rules you play by, and there should be a general consensus on this before you begin. But as this is a thread in which we are voicing our personal opinions about 'user-imposed rules', I thought I'd just put my tuppence in....
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited November 03, 2000).]

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Mis,

Regading pod booming. There is one instance that I know of that may turn the tide in the thought that pod booming isn't effective.

Assume for a second you have at your disposal Planetary transit SP a size 3 base and two crawlers. Assumet he cralwers are on mines or better yet borholes to the size three base. The size three base pops a pod every 2 ish turns reducing the base to a colony pod on turn 6. reestablish the base leaving the other two pods sent to increase populations at target bases. Repeat etc. What this means is that operating under ANY set of SE conditions regardless of growth you can grow your base sizes (not necessarily requiring Pop boom conditions for growth). So Yang whois virtually impossible to pop boom can Planetary Transit pod boom very well.

Just a wrinkle to discuss. Again, the prevailing thought that the pod supplying size 3 base may have better things to do like establish new bases is perfectly arguable inthis case as well but for pop boom incapable factions (Yang, 'Borgs, And to a lesser extent Sven and Morgan) PT pop booming has some attaractive upsides especially when the target base is a SSC.

Og

[VoodooChild]

*shudder*