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I've never built a gravship in MP, I must admit Since they are air units, I would assume that the defence bonuses would be the same, but I haven't tested it ...
I think the Progenitor factions got their rep as superfactions from their strength in the early game. I hear that most multiplayer games end in the first 100 turns. The Progenitors' advantages would make them hard to beat quickly. And in single-player the AI is too stupid to keep up with a player, let alone catch up to a player with a head start. But how would the Progenitors fare if they didn't win quickly and if their opponent was capable of staying in the game?
H'minee would do well. Since the Caretakers are capable of using all SE settings, she can build with the builders if she wishes. Or her +1 Planet will let her play hybrid like Deirdre, and her combat bonus helps in a momentum game. She is a true superfaction. But Marr is a different story.
He has one big disadvantage: no Democracy. This means it is quite difficult for him to pop boom, and it makes it hard for him to run a large colony, since the best efficiency he can get is +3. So he shouldn't be able to match a human-faction builder or hybrid at building. Since he doesn't get trade, submissives are much less valuable for him than they are for more conventional momentum factions. And he has additional disadvantages in diplomacy, and, as the game goes on, in trade: later on in the game trade becomes more valuable than the aliens' energy grid.
This suggests that his strategies should be most similar to those of Yang.
This is why I picked the settings for my Marr challenge as I did. Huge world (in two of the games) to prevent them from winning right off. And Transcend to maximize the difficulties Marr would suffer from his low efficiency, and to maximize the importance of the AI factions: as a human faction playing against Marr, the human AI's are my friends.
I finished up my game and didn't come even close to my fastest transcend time with a human faction on double blind research. I have to agree with Basil that Marr is not as overpowered as some of the other posters have suggested, particularly if your game style is primarily builder.
Playing the aliens means taking a diplomatic hit. You have a lot more trouble maintaining friendships and alliances. This means less tech trading with the AI.
Maybe I am missing something regarding defenses to nerve gas warfare but it strikes me that mindworms can be a great defense particularly as Cha dawn . Running a high planet rating means that you will quickly obtain replacements for those killed off. If emptying the city is not an option for fear of drop units I would station multiple mindworms in key cities and have a SAM rover or three ready to take out the noodle jets.
My experience comes from SP only when I was gassing the AI. I found that my jets were beating the mindworms but there was no population reduction and the jets took heavy damage. My thinking was that Sam Rovers, interceptors or Sam choppers could have put a big dent in the attack.
Is there any major drawback to all of this?? I know that the attacker could use some empath weapons to clear the native life more effectively. But what I am trying to find is the most effective ways to defend if forced to defend. Then I can make a foray into multiplayer with at least an idea of how to make it interesting since the level of knowledge exhibited on this board indicates I have a lot to learn.
CBN -- yes, when an x-gas unit attacks a city with a mindworm in it and wins the city doesn't lose pop. (that's what I understand anyways).
RedFred -- I don't think the aliens are suited to play a builder game, neither would Marium be suited to play a strong tech game. I think some, if not all, factions have different stratagies that are more successfull than others. The aliens weren't neccessarily designed to be a builder and if you intend to play them that way they're going to look a bit weak.
It's true that mindworms neutralise nerve gas capability, which means that even if the attacker wins, you don't lose pop.
The main drawback to using native lifeforms of any kind as defenders is the cost of building them. In addition, as you observe, they are not particularly strong defenders once empath attack is available. And late game, they are pretty much useless without the appropriate SPs.
As you say, when playing Cult/Gaians, you could perhaps hope to replace them free of charge by capturing new worms. But this is somewhat hit and miss - if you are under sustained attack, you can't base your defence on hoping to find and capture more worms.
Here are your options:
*Within range of nerve gas, out of range of drop troops.
Under these circumstances, I would empty my cities and build only attack units (nerve gas jets/choppers primarily, with cheap little impact jets for ZOC and plinking formers, supply crawlers and expensive terrain improvements, like boreholes/mines). I would build air complexes a) to increase the morale of my attack units and b) to defend against drop attacks, even if there were no immediate threat.
Then simply attack, attack, attack with everything you have.
*Within range of nerve gas, within drop range.
Yikes! Big problem. Never get yourself in this position If you *are* in this position, then the strategy will depend on the exact circumstances involved - how good is your best armour, can you rush aerospace before they are ready to drop, if the base is taken, can they hold it? Worst case, should you destroy certain vulnerable bases to prevent them from getting a foothold and give you a chance to develop your remaining cities? And so on. It's hard for me (too tactical, no strategy I'm afraid) to speculate ...
Here are some general guidelines that I've found to be useful though:
I have always found it to be better to build *attack* units (gas jets, gas choppers) rather than defensive SAM units. By the time you deploy SAM, the damage is being done. And where are you going to put them? Unless you build best armour on SAM land units, they are useless as defenders. Outside your cities, they are dead meat and inside your cities are simply asking for a dose of gas.
If your best armour can stand up to a nerve gas attack given the relative tech positions, it probably makes sense to spend your money on decent armoured/AAA garrisons while building pure attack units to put your opponent on the defensive.
Many people advocate using interceptors to defend against nerve gas jets/choppers. Well, all I can say is that in MP I *target* cities containing interceptors. They are an easy kill for a gas attacker with equivalent weapons or even lesser weapons - in many cases, I can easily take a missile interceptor with an impact x jet for example. And halve the city size to boot ... Of course, relative morale is important here.
Prior to orbital improvements, you can try to house interceptors in air bases outside the radius of your cities. This can be helpful when playing a momentum opponent with many small bases and fairly poor production. If you choose carefully, you can find a site that is unlikely to be discovered by the enemy for a while. But once they have a satellite, this is useless.
In terms of preparing for a nerve gas war, it's worth noting the following:
Air complexes are key, because they prevent drop attack while boosting air defence by 100%. For this reason, I tend to build these in key/vulnerable bases as soon as they are available.
Perimeters don't help at all - but tachyons *do* boost air defence. By 200%. Unfortunately, they come late.
Other ways to boost air defence: sensors, AAA, geosynchronous survey, creches.
I should add that I am a pure builder, not an ounce of momentum instinct in me. So these are what I consider to be *defensive* strategies - I have never yet declared war on another player in MP.
By the way, the best way to learn is to play against other humans, rather than the AI. The first game I played against humans, I suffered the most humiliating defeat you can imagine (gulp) - and learned more than I could write in a somewhat thick strategy guide Since then, my performance has improved considerably
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited October 24, 2000).]
That was a pretty comprehensive answer that confirmed a lot of what I had been thinking. The reality in SP is that my bases are not attacked that much since I am usually the one on the offensive. My view of this game is that it totally favours the attacker. Therefore my goal is similar to yours in that I attempt an "active defense" in that I usually try to keep hostile bases/units far far away.
My question was aimed at what do do when you are in that terrible position of being the defender of a gas attack. If they can't airdrop or otherwise land attack I would empty the city. If the remainder of my empire was out of range I would consider obliterating the city to gain time (last resort option).
But I am intrigued by the possibilities of mindworms, SAM units and air superiority choppers. At times as CHA Dawn I had possibilities of as high as +7 Planet (I find this made midworm capture very easy and the worms fairly resiliant). I wouldn't be able to rely on mindworm capture but each one of these is a free unit to bring into battle. I believe there was a thread that indicated that the chance of freebies decreased depending on the number of freebies you had currently. So as my free mindworms are destroyed I should pick up others over time. With agressive trolling I find thay are replaced very quickly.
I was trying to think of situations where I am being attacked but where the relative units/productive capacity/tech are not so lopsided that the result is a forgone conclusion. For example, attacker throws 6 gas needlejets at my major production centre. This is my most important city that is vulnerable (to either drop attack or amphibious landing)so I defend with mindworms. All the needlejets win (although a mindworm can win depending on relative morale/lifecycle/planet rating/SPs/luck). One or two air superiority choppers could plink them all. Or elite Sam Rovers would likely take out 2-3 each.
The end result is that I lose 6 mindworms but he should lose all 6 needlejets and I don't lose any productive capacity or population. I haven't checked the relative minerals to produce each (I think the needlejet is cheaper) but even a significant mineral cost difference might be worthwhile to keep the city unharmed (and as Cha dawn I will get freebie mindworms to replace those lost). I might try to counterattack using the suicide multiple attack x-chopper strike or even suicide gas needlejet runs. These would become much less attractive options if faced with a mindworm defender since the whole point of those runs is to cripple the city.
If the attacker were human (when i get into MP) this would communicate my willingness to fight to the last and perhaps weaken them to the point that they would be vulnerable to others. The reality is that if I don't have sufficient might to do some considerable damage I must be so far behind in tech/productive capacity that any defensive measures are probably futile. So all of this presupposes at least some level of parity in that the choices you make could actually matter.
I find these boards great and have been slowly going through all the threads. I do find though that one of the best ways to learn is to propose an approach and see what people have to say. I know that I am a relative newbie so if I totally miss things please bear with me.
The impact of being put on a defensive posture is critical. If the sole intent is to simply hold onto what you have by filling bases with worms it is at best simply a stall tactic to an inevitable defeat. It is imperative to gain an ally to shut down/cause a diversion to the X-airforce juggernaut until you can respond in kind.
Worms tho' can be an effective short term defender if one simply has the following:
Nueral empath (SP), tachyon, aerospace, and sensors.
With those in hand you can compete effectively against even empath units cost of worms aside. (point taken on freebie captured worms but one also needs to understand that it takes time to relocate captured worms to emptied bases.)
I reemphasize tho' a purely defender role is not a position anyone wants to be in. It by default means you are losing. Defense of a base for the short term (1-2 turns) until you can respond is another issue. However repeated turn in turn out attacks of 2-3 X-choppers (or empath choppers) on your best base site will in the long run divert your base(s) to making defenders and not making facilites or attackers hence you have lost the war but won a few battles.
The attacker OTOH will continue making his cheaper attackers and allow him opportunities to grow his empire (either vertically or horizontally).
The game comes down to expansion (conquering or setting new bases) and growth (either base size or facility multipliers). Anything that prevents you from expanding or growing is a losing proposition. OTOH a credible threat (note: not actually engaging in war) that you can and will cause like damage to your opponent is the best defense. In a MAD scenario, the winners then become the other players that sit on the sidelines gaining their strength whilst the two warring parties take themselves out of the picture. Reminds of that game Mis had wherein she was the Cyborgs in 1st place, Zach in second nuked her and the Morgan player sat on the sidelines moving from from 3rd position to 1st. (good reading that MP game as all players were attempting to relay press releases in character).
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
1. I agree fully I NEVER want to be the defender.
2. I also agree that my replacement mindworms will probably be too far away to be of any immediate help and it will take a few turns to capture replacements. My comment was meant more to be about the fact that these were "free" in the first place as Cha Dawn(or if Planet rating is high)and they will be replaced "free" over time. Therefore the high cost of mindworms is not that relevant if I am looking at the outcome of battles-- ie the relative mineral expenditure. My production centres are able to pump out either attackers or defenders. My goal is to hold that important city until I can splash some gas on the attackers positions.
3. Doesn't tachyon come rather late to help in these attacks?
4. I agree fully that if all I do is defend death is inevitable. Attackers will establish closer launch sites such that I would find other cities decimated.
Thats why I talked about picking off his jets and launching some counterstrikes.
5. If this were MP I would be calling out for an ally but even without one my goal would be to show that the price of a successful attack would be so high as to be detrimental to victory. Defense to gas is hard/expensive for both sides so a few shots at his forward bases or long range suicide chopper runs into the heartland could convince the warmonger to give peace a chance.
I can see I will have to find time for multiplayer so that I can see some of this stuff in action.
Re: Tachyons, you are very correct sir by the time airpower is in hand or more importantly MMI tachyon is still aways off.
As a consequence, X-air power is a must have for a player in order to deter agression. Nothing says beat me up like being unable to defend yourself. While nothing scares a bully away like having his nose bloodied as well.
I always wanted to create a probe unit with Sam capability but alas no luck. Personally I still stand by my opinion that nerve capability comes way to early in the game and that no credible defense exists against it. Seems to me Firaxis should have come up with either an SP or facility that negates the 1/2 population loss after all they certainly have capabilities to prevent/defend against planet busting even if it is late in the game (prob is the window of opportunity to planet bust is pretty large and for nerve gas its practically the whole game). But again should haves and could haves aren't necessarily reality.
Good luck
Og
P.S. By the by has anyone ever played an MP game where it was understood that nerve ability and PB's were offlimits (ie. all players agreed to no Nerve or PB's at game start up). If so how did it go?
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
It's true that tachyons come late in the game. It's also true that I have built them in at least three of my recent games. I expect to build more.
Tachyons tend to appear in games where the power is reasonably balanced and everyone is vying for position and not quite willing to attack. This is especially true in the 3-player tourny games where there is no co-op victory. With three strong players, everyone knows that the two who fight will lose the game. It makes it ... quite interesting
I agree with you Ogie, nerve gas comes too early and there is no way even of moderating its impact. There probably should be, even if it arrives later and is expensive. Having said that, I owe my skin to nerve gas in a couple of games now - as a builder, I can just about get x jets a few turns before dozens of Momentum impact/missile rovers will come rushing in.
I've never played a game where we agreed no busters/no nerve gas. I'm not sure whether I'd want to do this now - a buster is not necessarily the end of the world. I *would* have liked to see something in the game to mitigate nerve gas - but that'll never happen now ...
I should not post this.
Because I'm tired, and in danger of looking stupid.
But if I build an airfield near a city, put interceptors in the airfield, none in the city, wont the interceptors scramble to defend the city, and if they die, not being in the city, wont they not cost the city any population?
So have an SAM rover in the city, with good attck, and a bunch of 1-1 interceptors in the airbase (as cannon fodder, they'll be much cheaper to crank out than your enemies attack planes), or if he uses choppers, a really good elite attack plane in the airbase.
Is this stupid? Does it make sense? If it's an error, I'm just tired, but it sounds like it might work....
Black Sunrise
Doesn't sound stupid to me. I was wondering the same thing. I would think you would need more than a couple interceptors in the airfield in case there are multiple attacks on the base though. Good idea. Anyone have the answer or will you make us suffer through the scenario editor?
No, I didn't have the answer so I tried the scenario editor just quickly as I had something set up that was easy to try. Basically, when my interceptor scrambled from the airfield, it went *into* the base to defend. Then it lost. And then the base pop was halved.
I suspect that where the interceptor goes is going to depend on the relationship between it and the attacking unit, in terms of the vector. It's an interesting idea - if you knew *exactly* where the attacking units were going to come from, maybe you could build an airbase in the right position so that the battle was fought outside the city. But it's a bit hit and miss, and all the attacker has to do is work out what's happening and then attack from the right angle ...
cbn - a couple more thoughts on the native defenders idea. First the obvious: Any green faction can come up with a good supply of native life for free. At least, free in terms of build cost. Some of your units will likely be independents and others will have a maintenance cost attached to one of your cities if the native unit is not on fungus.
If the native unit is a worm or a iod I'll generally have them out patrolling the fungus or engaging the enemy (or maybe transporting stuff for the iod), but I am at a loss as what to do with the excess spore launchers. They are sub-optimal as fungus patrollers.
Sometimes I won't have a nearby battle to throw them into. If that is the case and if the spore launcher is an independent, then I'll designate defender and start placing them in my coastal/frontier cities. Handy against pesky but ineffectual AI ship attacks. Also handy against missiles. The unit was free to start with so you haven't really lost anything and you've saved your star defender for another battle.
Since they are air units, I would assume that the defence bonuses would be the same, but I haven't tested it ...
Since then, my performance has improved considerably 
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