Somebody please defend free market

[UnityScoutChopper]

Hiya,

Could somebody please defend free market under the conditions that I usually play (huge, transcend)? I tried it way back when, but ever since I discovered police infantry, I can't imagine the advantage from +1 energy/square being greater than the loss of 4 (2 police infantry) to 16 (santiago police/green/knowledge after Ascetic Virtues and Cloning Vats... 4x2x2=16, or maybe only 3x2x2, I forget) controlled drones. I guess I am too much of a lousy ICS'er -- certainly without the extra drone/base and with larger bases early on, it would make more sense.

What I REALLY can't understand is Morgan on Free Market. The added treaty/pact income from +3 economy is AFAIK nothing special; the whole reason for free market is the +1/square, which Morgan can get from Wealth. But I've seen two posts recently mentioning him in that "mode".

Erik P

[Aredhran]

Try Morgan with Demo/FM/Wealth, with the Global Trade Pact, and you'll see the light With a couple pacts, some bases can give you 15-20+ ec just with commerce (not to mention the base square which gives 8, and the +1 ec per base) You'll make so much money, it's almost obscene.

Aredhran

[Solver]

I hate free market. With its police, drones are out of control, and it doesn't improve science as well. Shadow loves Morganites, but I don't like their Hab Dome penalty. Can't exceed size 4... terrible.

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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[Adam_Smith]

FM is absolutely the best SE choice if war is not a profitable option. You have to prepare for it though. For example, you should have trance and empath units set up to defend against worms first, and of course you need more facilities. Try this: Go Demo/FM and rush science (or energy) to 100%. No go Demo/Green and rush to 100%. In almost every case you will still get more with Demo/FM even though you lose some to ineffiency. That's how powerfull FM is. I do think that Morgan should go with Green sometimes though, and never use FM with Cha Dawn.

[Misotu]

You're right. FM is a very powerful setting - with some very powerful drawbacks. Once you're on it, it's very hard to wean yourself off because even Green doesn't remotely begin to compensate. The trick is to learn how to live with FM - if you can do that, you have it made ...

[Misotu]

Yes ... I played an MP game against someone who did exactly what Aredhran outlines above - Morgan is *extremely* strong when played well.

[RedFred]

FM probably works even better on huge worlds that Unity plays on. A bit more of a challenge on regular sized worlds or smaller as you will be about as popular with the AI as the Progenitors.

The only other good way of getting a ton of cash in the early game I know of is with the Cult of Planet on a major capture or kill the native life mission. Cash flow is lumpier and less reliable though.

With Morgan, Green can work as a good alternative, particularly if you've already temporarily maxed the population at 4.

[Helium Pond]

Speaking of Morgan and Free Market, I've just played a couple games with Morgan, and I finally kind of got the hang of it, but I never quite got to the stage everybody talks about, where you have "obscene" amounts of money. I mean, sure, near the very end I got up to 6000 or so ec a turn, but from what I hear that's actually pretty poor. I'm under the impression that people can be earning in the thousands before MY 2200. I'm usually earning about 150-300 for most of the game, and then late in the game I get a huge boost, after everything's tree farmed and hybrid forested. I rely heavily on jungles. Any idea what I might be doing wrong? Maybe I'm getting too many minerals and not enough energy with my crawlers?

[WhiteElephants]

With the money from FM you should easily be able to rush build the rec commons and holo theatres you need to quell the drone riots as well as selectivly rush build hab complexs for bases with a high growth curve. Who needs 16 drones quelled anyways??? You ought to be using as many specialists as you can at that point in the game which will naturally reduce the amount of drones a base generates.
If it's going to war your worried about try building a punishment sphere in one of your cities and add clean reactors to your troops (which you should already be doing) and home their support to the city with the punishment sphere a then go run someone over.
The benefit of FM is more energy and more tech, but you have to be ready for the transition to FM before you jump into it (rec commons, holo theartres, energy banks? net nodes?).

[UnityScoutChopper]

Well, I see FM has no lack of advocates :-)

I still doubt I'll use it anytime soon. I didn't mention perhaps the most important drawback in my original post -- it lacks the +2 growth of Planned. Perhaps SMACX fixed the Golden Age bug, but in SMAC 4.0, 2+2+2 somehow <> 6, so you can't pop boom in FM using Golden Ages, as should be possible.

It seems to me that pop booms have a stronger benefit than the +1 energy from FM: +1 energy is +1 energy, but pop booms mean more of everything, plus a firm grip on the planetary governorship.

Perhaps also Transcend is particularly unkind to FM, as it is easier to cross the threshold into at least minimum Psych effects when the first drone doesn't come at size 2. By the way, on Transcend, putting anything (but Psych -- JOKE) at "100%", as one post here mentioned, after cities reach any considerable size, is unthinkable, as at least 20% has to go to psych (and it's kind of a waste not to use the psych bonuses that the midgame facilities give, anyway).


Though I can theoretically conceive of having reached a diminishing-returns point in my pop boom cycle before getting the Cloning Vats and miraculously not being forced to beat the tar out one of my neighbors (or finding it profitable to force him/her into submission, heh heh), and thus getting some use out of FM before the Vats, I can't see it happening.

Morgan is of course a special case in all of this. I still hold that FM is even more ridiculous for him than for others. Again, this may be connected to the nature of Transcend -- the moment you get ahead, you will have to fight to hold your position, which doesn't mix well with FM. But more importantly, once you get ahead, you generally have to give everything you have to your warlike neighbors, losing whatever advantage you had, or they go to war. Even if they don't rip up your formers and crawlers with needlejets, you won't be getting the oodles of trade income mentioned in this thread.

I CAN imagine using FM after the Cloning Vats come and growth is no longer needed to boom. In fact, in one of the few games I have played all the way to Transcendence (I love huge maps, but I have a P150, so I usually quit when I know I've won), I did play FM with the University after the Vats, IIRC. In the endgame FM gets dropped again, however, as I'm really not convinced that the commerce for +4 economy (fm/eudo) outweighs the lost drone control and added fungal blooms.

Fungal blooms -- I use 2-3 crawlers per core city, generally mining rocky areas, and I get planet chewing up my 'forming (and my formers -- demanding empath scouts or at least recon rovers) in midgame (bases size 7-14) even with a +1 planet rating (I'm experiencing it right now with Deirdre), let alone with -3.

However... obviously, FM has many supporters. I'm still listening...

[Fitz]

I deride the FM supporters. I never use FM, because when I do, I get the **** kicked right out of me, by planet and by warmongering neighbors. The advantage to FM is supposed to be oodles of money. First of, I never see this. At most, it nets me an extra hundred or so a turn (I test it periodically) in mid game, and much less before energy restrictions. Second, that extra money is used instantly, along with money previously directed to other efforts, in an attempt to subvert incoming enemy units with probes so I don't get my ass kicked. If I'm not using FM, I wipe out those incoming enemy units while I'm on my way to take over the enemies bases. Net effect, less money for upgrades/rushes.

However, I do see that you can side step this issue by using clean units/Punishment Spheres. But this means that you have more expensive military, and/or you are using up valuable special ability slots. Clean is an ability I almost never use, as support is not an issue.

Which brings me to my last point. The primary reason for not using FM is the -3 Planet. Low planet means either less minerals or more eco-damage. Less minerals means you are forced to rely on the Clean ability, and more eco-damage means that you are using your few military units for double duty, home protection from mindworms (as defenders or -30% attackers), and against your incoming warmongering neighbors.

I find FM useless, along with Fundementalist. The points in the game at which they might become handy, they are already outdated. I much prefer Demo/Planed for Growth, followed by Police/Green for warfare. Knowledge for miltary buildup, followed by Power for attacking. That's all you need, unless you are getting hammered by probes (because of knowledge) and are not yet ready to switch to power (because of the industrial penalty. At that point a switch to Wealth, with golden ages (not hard to induce if you've been pop booming for some time) will give you that same coveted +1 Energy/Square, which renders FM even more useless.

I've actually been contemplating removing the FM SE choice and putting a usefull economic choice in there.

[Misotu]

I hear you My personal favourites are PKs/Gaians - serious contenders when you run demo/planned for an early pop boom.

But ... try the Apolyton tournament here. On the tournament map, I have run FM for the first time ever, and found it very hard to pull away. You know, minerals are really not so important unless you're operating a full-scale war - and I mean full-scale. Otherwise, 10 minerals per base will allow you to rush-build everything you need. Focus on energy. Fusion labs? Three or four per turn. Even your quantums and nanos are reachable at two or more per turn. Most unusual, and most excellent

I've played a couple of games in the tourny, one as the Consciousness and one as the Pirates, where FM is just a joy. With an energy-focus, I can rush-build everything I need - and since neither faction can pop boom without GA (and actually, I've never managed to get them to pop boom with GA either I don't think), I've been forced to look at alternatives to the standard demo/planned/xxx. In my tourny game as the Gaians, I am working hard to stay abreast of the Drones and the Data Angels, both running FM ...

[WhiteElephants]

Man, I seem to always get into this debate and my favorite faction, the giaians can't even use Free Market?!?

USC, as for the issue of pop booming, you are right Morgan can't which has potential to seriously hamper his progress in SMAC. But, anyone else can just switch to demo/planned for the boom and switch back to demo/free market afterwards. You don't perpetually boom do you? Generally there is a limit to the boom being 14 because it is quite a while before hab domes. What good is it to stay in planned when your not booming? None beside the +1 industry, but I'd take +2 econ over that any day especially after the boom.

I never use psych, ever. Though I usually don't play Morgan and run free market, but I only have a police rating of -1 so one police isn't going to make much difference in that respect. One less thinker or engineer is what it amounts to. I also never use units with the police ability.

Fitz, an extra hundred clams is quite a lot to just let pass you by. And in free market you don't need minerals as much as you think (as Mistou said). All you need is 10-15 and the rest is a rush build with the extra cash you'll have laying around.

You two don't sound like your preparing for the switch to Free Market in the way you (Fitz) want to just switch back and forth between power/knowledge or demo/planned or police/green. You have to be ready to handle the drones and be prepared to reap the extra energy by having the appropriate facilities up and running in some of your larger cities. It's more like a pop boom than a typical social engineering change. Wealth with Golden Ages is for factions that can't run FM like the Gaians. Your wasting your precious energy pumping it into psych to get the golden age which would probably even out what your gaing from the +2 econ anyways. Why not save the money and run FM? You'll still net the +2 econ without having to dump money into psych.

If I'm running Free Market and your not I'm getting two things you aren't: 1)more tech 2)more energy to spend. And 9 out of 10 times your just not going to be able to keep up with those odds against you. Free Market is for the builders and isn't going to win you an early game it's going to win you the game in the long run so you have to stick with it and watch the amount of cash your netting grow and grow. And the clean ability is also a builders dream come true. Running Free Market and not rehoming clean units to one city is sacraleige.

I'm not saying FM is the be all to end all I'm just saying you guys are selling it way too short. Give it a chance and work with it.

[RedFred]

I'd like to echo WhiteElephants on the psych allocation on Transcend. I normally run 0% as well. In certain circumstances I'll go 10%, but never 20%. I'd agree with Unity that 100% science isn't the best but I'll often be at 80 or 90% science.

Fitz, at the risk of stating something overly obvious your income boost with FM is dependent on the size of your economy. Are you doing all the right things to aid economy growth?

And no fundy, ever? I admit to using it only rarely, like during a serious war when I see dozens of probe teams heading my way, but it still has its uses.

[Black Sunrise]

OK, here's what I've been using lately, and it ONLY works on big maps, and I always play trancend SP.
FM, Demo, Wealth.
Captital has Merchant Exchange, next to capital is another city with high mineral output. I also try for Planetary Energy Grid.
Capital builds only things that effect money and research, all are rush builded. Rest of the time, its on stockpile energy.
That other city? It makes Supply Transports. They go to the capital, set as home city, then go gather either energy or nutrients.
Capital grows quickly, which means more specialists.
Capital has ton of incoming energy, zero inefficiency.
Usually it winds up producing %50+ of my labs and %50 of my energy per turn.
I don't give the other factions money or energy, cause I don't bother expanding beyond a typical morgan size, and I just don't try to talk to them much. Don't talk to them, don't give them anything.
This is how I got my first economic victory, and it works. Works best I think for UoP, second best for Morgan. UoP can get to supply crawlers instantly, start cranking them out, jack up energy levels, which means a lot of research and money.
Comments?
btw, usually I get farenough ahead in tech so I can fight of invasions easily enough.
Again, this is all SP, transcend, really big map.
At most I take 1 ally, who likes wealth, demo or FM, and is preferably in a war. They stay loyal due to the war and the matching settings, and I make a ton of cash off them.
Black Sunrise