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**Flubber** · October 29, 2003, 18:24

I don't know the answer to your question regarding old threads but I believe I do have a paper copy of marione's excellent analysis of the cost/benefit of various crawler upgrades. Perhaps I can get it to a scanner.

**Minute Mirage** · October 29, 2003, 18:33

Actually, this thread at CGN contains the following post from MariOne:

sorry Dim, but I have to nitpick on you, just a little.
IMHO, a SC-12t-2*4 Grav, is a sign of poor designing skills.
Both per se, and towards the purpose of upgrading crawlers to be cashed in.
This regardless the real utility of the unit, I'm talking about cost-effectiveness.

First, the unit above costs 9 rows.
This is more precise than stating the minerals, because the mineral value may vary depending on the Industry SE setting you have.
Besides, upgrade costs only take *rows* into account, and NOT the actual minerals.

Regarding the unit per se (forget for now the upgrade part):
The SAME unit, with a Hover (or Rover) chassis, would cost THE SAME 9 rows.
This means that if you really find the unit useful on the field, you're wasting the possibility of a *better* chassis for FREE.
The SAME unit with a Quantum Reactor costs only 8 rows. True you lose 10 hitpoints this way, you lose more than you spare. But you know that in PSI combat the Singularity Engine is disadvantaged (IIRC this has never been fixed). You praise this unit qualities against worms. It's indeed against worms that the unit would be better with a Quantum Chamber. It could have sense with *4 Reactor if you make it ECM against rovers.

Let's now come to the upgrade part.
You might have a point to keep the Infantry chassis, if you have lots of basic crawlers to upgrade, as we know that you can't change chassis.
But:
- for *upgrade to cash* purposes, you have far more cost-effective designs with Infantry chassis
- if by the time you get to Transcendence you still have basic crawlers, then you might revise you management. After Fusion, you can have SC-1-2*2 Fusion Speeder Crawlers at the same cost of a basic one. You should thus cash in the older ones when you have the occasion.

When you upgrade from a basic SC-1-1 to your "Cargo 99" (do you always run at -1 Industry to put that 99 in the name?), you spend your ec to *transform* something you already have.
You HAVE a basic crawler, worth 3 rows. After the upgrade you have a 9 rows unit you intend to cash in. What did you pay your ec for? You paid them to gain 6 extra rows, not 9. You already had 3, without needing to pay anything more.

In your example you cite the NanoFactory. You're right, but unless you play against the AI, only one of the players will have the NF, and that might be not you. So, for generality let's consider it an optional and compare the figures without.
Then, the upgrade from the basic cralwer to your Cargo99 will cost 200 ec to get 6 extra mineral rows. Thus each added mineral row costed you 33.33ec (NF 16.66). With Industry +2 it would have costed less directly rushing the project!
With Infantry chassis, consider a SC^-3t-1, a DropTrance Plasma *fission* crawler. It cost 14 rows. It means that to upgrade up to it you pay 160 ec to get 11 extra row. You pay 14.54ec per added row (7.27 with NF!).
Using the settings of your example (-1 industry & NF) this means 80ec to add 121 extra minerals, instead of your 100ec to add 66.
If you really need to have armor 12, using a purposeless ability lets you have a local optimum in upgrade effectiveness: a Drop Clean (!) crawler will cost 34 rows. You'd pay 450 for the extra 31 rows, at the cost of 14.516 each (NF 7.258). 225ec for 341 added minerals in your settings.
If you really have to stick to Infantry chassis, you can be even more effective, but you'll have to produce on purpose some armored Fusion Crawler to be upgraded. You can get down to 13.63 per added row (and 13.33 if you accept to spend 4 rows instead of 3 to produce each one).

But once you decide to produce new crawlers after Fusion, you might prefer to get Speeders, which are not armored but offer greater mobility and flexibility, and far greater upgrade opportunities.
Look at this:
You build a SC-1-2*2
Upgrade to a SC^-2t-2*1 DropTrance (23 rows)
pay 240ec for the added 20 rows at 12ec each.
Upgrade to a SC^-4t-2*1 (32 rows)
pay 350ec for the added 29 rows at 12.069ec each
Fusion Hover Supplies are almost as upgrade effective, but they cost one more row to produce, and it may not be worth if you keep them long on the field before before you cash them in.

It is also interesting to start with an armored Quantum Rover (or Hover):
a SC-4-2*3 costs 5 initial rows
upgrade to a SC^-4t-2*1 (32 rows)
That is, leave the armor as it is, add DropTrance, and remove the reactor
pay 320ec for the 27 added rows at 11.852 each!
the same with a SC-3-3*3 to a SC^-3t-3*1
(in both this cases, adding also armor 12 will yeld 63-67 extra rows for less than 12.1ec each!)

Then there's a final scoop!
If you have AntiGrav you also have Gravships (and with Jets or Copter it's the same anyway).
Build a SC-1-8*3 initial cost 5 rows.
For some reason, above armor 4, air supplies are MORE expensive with Fusion and Quantum reactors!
So, if you upgrade it to a SC-12-8*3, Clean & Secure (with air chassis you have less abilities to pick from!) its value will skyrocket to...
200 rows!
Yes, the same cost of the Ascent.
You'd add the extra 195 rows at a cost of 2110ec (1055 NF), for 10.821each (5.41 NF!!!).
You need to have quantum reactor for that, but then starting with a single air supply you can buy yourself the Ascent with mere 2110ec.
Note, using Fusion Speeders, you can obtain the same with 4 synth and 4 plasma and 2120ec (1060 NF). But you'd need to start with 8 crawlers, and the added rows would be just 176.
Or, lacking Quantum, you can use a Clean Secure Fusion Stasis Copter Supply yielding 188 total rows (+183rows per 1990ec at 10.874 each), and esaily provide the missing 12.

Compare all this with your proposal where you needed double the money (4400ec, 2200 WITH NF) and *22 starting basic crawlers* (!).

-----

Some final considerations.
You have to know whether your design is to be really used on the field, or if it is just a shell for upgrading and cashing in.
If it has to be kept on the field, of course you want to keep it as cheapest as possible but able to defend itself.
If it's a shell to be cashed in, you instead want it to be worth the most nminerals possible, without using too much armor, because of the nature of the upgrade costs.

I showed you that in both cases there were better options for your design.

You might have a point in the sense that your design was a *compromise* between the two goals. Well, as a cashable unit, it was a pretty LAME use of your ec in all sense anyway.

And anyway let's consider also the timeframe when it becomes available.
You need Temporal Mechanics for Armor 12.
You need Graviton Theory for AntiGrav, which means you also got the Quantum Reactor. You also researched Singularity Mechanics to have the Engine.
Then you say that the Cargo99 can defend from worms, and then be used to build the Ascent.
Well, TempMech is usually the LAST tech youget before Threshold! If it's not so, you're unlucky or you have to revise your research path.
So, strictly speaking, the Cargo99 is NOT supposed to be around more than 3-4 turns (you yourself said a couple of turns)! This makes it to my eyes a design made with the MAIN purpose of getting cashed into the Voice and the Ascent. And we saw that there can be *MUCH* better in that sense.
More.
If your goal is the Ascent as you say, then you DON'T NEED to research the SingReactor, NOR the Quantum one, and even less AntiGrav & Gravships. All these techs are in a branch that doesn't lead to transcendence, and which you actually need to research only if your goal is a Conquest Victory...

Was there something more to it?

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Bible of upgrades and other old (missing) threads.

Bible of upgrades and other old (missing) threads.

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