Pollution problem

[Ishamael]

Wait, sorry to continue off topic, but I was just blindsided by this. You are telling me that it is the quantity of preserves/temples effects your entire empire and not building in a city helps that city, like other facilities? It has been awhile since I checked the formula, but I always thought those eco. buildings effected only their city. So building those is basically like paying 2 per turn for +.05 planet rating or something (simplified since there are other planet effects, such as combat, that obviously aren't effected, but lets 'dum' it down )?

[Fitz]

I disagree with AS in theory.

I say in theory because that's not what the literature says happens. I couldn't really say in actuallity because I haven't payed enough attention.

The way they are supposed to work is reduce that bases eco-damage if it is built in that base. And reduce planetary eco-damage (which supposedly only affects things like sea levels, volcanoes etc.) depending on how many you have.

I have heard many times people claim other things affect eco-damage, but usually with little to support it. Things such as damage reducing facilities affect eco-damage everywhere, sea level rises cause a reduction in eco-damage, furthur up the tech tree means less eco damage.

Any one care to use the editor to test it. Plant 50 bases, crank out minerals until eco-damage is at fifty. Then build damage reducing facilities in half and see if it affects the other half (don't let time pass). Start with the same situation and adds techs and see if it affects it. Unfortunately, the sea level stuff requires time to pass, so it could be harder to test.

If no one else has tested it this way by monday night, I can give it a shot then.

[WhiteElephants]

I believe it effects both the base and the global eco damage which is realted to the base. I would have to check the fromula in the data links to be sure. If I remember correcly though, it counts the total number to temples and preserves (globally?) and factors that into the equation. So Adam Smith is right. If you have more bases with preserves and temples you should be able to produce more minerals per base without inflicting eco damage.

[wneubert]

Boy did I mess up on this one. First of all, thanks Googlie for the correction that the 564 minerals was due to orbital production doubling the actual minerals. I have seen that before but forgot about it. That save was old and I only looked at the minerals reported, not what was being produced. I did wonder why so many cities had around 250 minerals, and those 17 had around 500 minerals. Thanks also for the minerals explanation.

I also was incorrect on the Centauri Preserve thing. I used the saved game to test this. I found I could get 282 minerals without pollution. Sold the Centauri Preserve and it went to 276. Sold all 49 preserves and it was still 276. That proves they don’t affect globally, right? I also checked the data links, and though you could take it either way, it did not specifically say global. It does clearly state that the number of tech is an important factor, so farther up the tech tree will reduce eco-damage. (It also said pollution is the same for thinker and transcend, so at least I didn’t further distort the issue with that.)

You mentioned “global pollution” that affects sea levels. I thought that this was based on eco-damage from all your cities. In other words, no eco-damage, no sea level rises. Is this correct?

PS – Sorry for all the confusion I caused here.

To Ishamael: I don’t think you are “off topic” discussing how pollution controls work in a thread titled “Pollution problems”.

[big_canuk]

I remember reading a thread a long way back, probably smac, that listed the formula for ecodamage. I might remember that the formula was a function of total minerals production on planet. I was unsure, at the time, whether that included all factions, or just your own production. I have had experiences in recent games where i was producing say 17 minerals without ecodamage. The next turn, i could only produce 16. Either something happened to planet, or total minerals production decresed. Does anyone know what the formula is?

[Adam_Smith]

The formula is in the datalinks under advanced topics. I was going to post it here, but I sort of changed my mind. It's about two pages of scribble. I may latter if no one else does, but right now I'm going to watch a movie. It's pretty interesting acually. It has been posted here before, but I forget who to give the credit to. I actually learned some things after seing it again that I must have forgot.

The main points are that the total number of Centauri Preserves, Temple of Planets and NANOREPLICATORS effect ecodamage globally. Also the tech level has an effect. Another one that I had forgot is "natife life level" as in the before start option. Appearantly if the native life level is higher your ecodamage level with be higher.

This formula is not cast is stone however as far as I'm concerned. For example, it says that only MAJOR atrocities affect ecodamage, but I know for a fact that minor attrocities (in large number) affect it.

[Googlie]

For those with the Prima Guide, the formula is spelled out on page 24. (If I had a flatbed scanner I'd scan and post the page, but I'm not ripping it out of the book to conventional scan)

But Prima does say that if your planet rating is 3 or better, you are immune from eco damage, and wneubert, yours was a rating of 5, so your sell-off experiment wouldn't make any difference.

Googlie

[Googlie]

Here's the formula from concepts.txt

#ADVCONCEPT2

The ecological damage formula is complex:

(1) For each base total the number of Mines, Solar Collectors, Farms,
Soil Enrichers, Roads, Mag Tubes, Condensers, Mirrors, and Boreholes.

Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.

(2) Add an extra +8 for each Borehole, +6 for each Mirror, and +4 for each Condenser.

(3) Subract 1 for each Forest.

(4) Halve if base has Tree Farm, and Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.

(5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous
damages. Set this number aside.

(6) Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit)

(7) If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#, reduce result 6
by remaining amount.

(8) Divide minerals by 1 plus # of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet,
Nanoreplicator.

(9) Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity=8>.

(10) If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double
your value.

Ecology% = (ValueFromStep10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-PLANET) * LIFE / 300

Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value
LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start

Googlie



[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited August 05, 2000).]

[Adam_Smith]

Here I have gone and found this in the pile of old threads. See I don't just tell people they are wrong. I do stuff for the Apolyton community also.

LoD
Warlord
From: Warsaw, Poland
Registered: Jan 2000

posted April 01, 2000 05:08




The formula is (from the help file):


(1) For each base total the number of Mines, Solar Collectors, Farms, Soil Enrichers, Roads, Mag Tubes,Condensers, Mirrors,and Boreholes. Items in squares which are actually being worked count double.
(2) Add an extra +8 for each Borehole, +6 for each Mirror, and +4 for each Condenser.
(3) Subract 1 for each Forest.
(4) Halve if base has Tree Farm, and Eliminate if also has Hybrid Forest.
(5) Divide this value by 8, and reduce by up to 16 plus # of previous damages. Set this number aside.
(6) Take the number of minerals produced this turn (but not from Orbit)
(7) If result from 5 was reduced by less than 16+#, reduce result 6 by remaining amount.
(8) Divide minerals by 1 plus # of Centauri Preserve,Temple of Planet,Nanoreplicator.
(9) Sum the values of (5) and (8), and add +5 for each major atrocity.
(10) If Alpha Prime is at perihelion (20 years out of every 80), double your value.


Ecology% = (ValueFromStep10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-PLANET) * LIFE / 300

Difficulty = Normally 3, but 5 on two highest two difficulty levels.
Technologies = Number of technologies discovered
PLANET = Social Engineering PLANET value
LIFE = Native life level (1-3) from Custom Start


LoD

[big_canuk]

thanks!

Am i missing something, or must there be something more to it than this. In wneubert's example he had a planet rating of 5, therefore the formula would evaluate to 0, regardless of the other values. yet from his save, googlie was able to produce ecodamage by moving 2 workers to fungus, raising his mins production (564 to 612). Are my maths that rusty, or am i missing something?

[Googlie]

b_c:

Yes, but that was only for that base. The eco damage there might have been mitigated/eliminated by an excess contribution from preserves and temples, tree farms Hybrids, etc from other bases - I didn't look.

But I think A_S is right - the immunity from ecodamage with a planetrating of =/>3 seems to indicate zero ecodamage - but I'm not sure it really works that way (but after all, anything times zero is zero, right?).

Googlie


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited August 05, 2000).]

[Ishamael]

Perhaps those perfectionists among us should ask Firaxis that, since they don't seem to intend to release a patch anytime soon (hopefully, they will eventually, but lets be realistic) they could mitigate (but NOT compensate!!!) for the harm done by releasing the real formulas and mechanics instead of the watered down, innaccurate formulas included for this and so many other game mechanics. Some seem to get it right, but this one at least is hopelessly buggy. The planet notation proves it right there, and it also doesn't mention the singularity inductor. I realize it does more eco harm than good, but doesn't it claim to reduce eco damage beyond what would be without it (build all the facilities seperately)? I don't remember mention of it in the formula.

[Adam_Smith]

Like I said... I don't think that formula is exactly right.

BTW, Googlie and I posted the formula simultaniously

[Decx]

hi, I got a couple of questions... Fun huh?

So using this formula, it does actually mean that having boreholes outside of a base radius being mined by an crawler does actually create eco-damage? If this is so, does both the minerals coming in (from the ming crawler) AND the prescence of a borehole create eco-damage?

How much eco-damage can be sustained before a Global warming occurs? I know other factions (AI) can cause them, because once the HIve went nuts and created quite a few global warmings.

Also, in the case of atriocties (and I have a feeling this has been answered before), I know that say nerve-gasing a Alien faction will not cause a bad rep, but will still it cause eco-damage? What about with a PB on an alien faction?

Decx

------------------
Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done.

[Adam_Smith]

The first question is will a borehole used outside of the base radius cause ecodamage. The answer is yes, but not as much. Of course, you won't get the energy, and it's better to have them inside of the base radius and build a tree farm.

The next question is how much ecodamage does it take to cause global warning. I don't really know, because this never happens to me anymore. I think if you let it get away from you it will happen pretty soon.

Richard Tator produces so many minerals that he melts the polar ice caps. I don't know how many boreholes he looses. I think he builds many enhancements outside of his bases though. It works good for him. He gets a big lead in production in the mid game, before the invent of tree farms and cetauri preserves. One of the things he does is get a lot of territory especially in high elevation and his bases are pretty spread out.

The last question is can you PB the aliens without ecodamage, and the answer is no. Probably because of the damage that PBs do to the planet