Morgan - What now?

[AMD4EVER]

Originally posted by Flubber
amd4ever
I played your game for 60 years but now its boring as its all over but the crying. i would win within another 10 years I figure. . . I actually estimate 5 years before I reduce Lal enough that I have the votes for supreme leader.

While I didn't like the way you set things up, you did have well developed bases. I pretty much ignored their further development and went military. Its not the prettiest game I played but it was a bit of fun-- It felt odd to be so late in the game though . . I don't remember the last time I went past 2250

My save is attached

Holy cow! How did you do that so fast? I'm in the same year as your save was and I was not even close to taking out the main cluster of Gaian bases, much less the Peacekeepers or the water bases scattered around. Thats just incredible!!

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asmodean


So what you're saying is that I should focus development on different areas in different bases. Okay...I can live with that. But the numbers don't add up. You say a couple of energy bases, and a copuple of mineral bases. How many bases do you normally have, Flubber? I kinda like to go ICS. Are you saying that is not the way?

Asmodean

First-- I have never seen your development so your style might be fabulous. My comments were based on amd4ever's game where he developed each base exactly the same without seeming to consider the terrain,growth opportunities or military risk to that base.He no crawlers, few formers, a bunch of unused good terraforming and no boreholes. If instead of about 15 of these facilities ( avoided building 7 or 8 of each of command centres and preimeters,) he would have had 15 crawlers, he would have been in much better shape

A "couple" was inaccurate wording by me. Its a couple of super bases early but when doing things right you may end up with 8 or 10 or 20 bases with all the enhancing facilities. It would be nice to develop every base but I'm talking about prioritizing. If I can get 5 crawlers (bringing 20 energy say) into an existing developed base with a NN,res hosp. and energy bank . . . that strikes me as a better use of resources than spending triple the resources to build those 3 facilities in a base now producing say 12 energy ( not even factoring in maintenance costs. 5 crawlers is what ? 150 minerals or so--

I don't have a normal amount of bases . . . I tend to expand until geography or opponents stop me .

.

ICS is an excellent strategy. I do it myself with some factions and if you are going thin expansion, you might not be developing much. But when the time comes to develop, I do recommend focusing development to get a few really good bases first.

If you look at my morgan save from amd4evers game I could only partially implement this due to military considerations, but I had one base pumping out something like 300 labs at 50% allocation. I had 3 other bases build the sea formers to terraform the tidal harnesses while the energy base just built crawlers.

In my normal setup I would have selected a science base or two VERY early on and given them every energy enhancement as quickly as possible and consistent with a safe empire. The crawler/trawler field would be much larger.

The safe empire part comes from a few military bases. I usually pick places in a rocky area and crawl a bunch of mines. The base may never grow and I don't care. Some of my pure military bases may be size ones where the only citizen becomes a doctor because I want to send my troops to war while in FM. ( poor man's punishment sphere)

I am very flexible in my development and don't follow a set development pattern but I do usually put bases 2-3 tiles apart and then select roles for them once the situation becomes more apparent. Once I have a sense of the map I pick 2-3 to be my "good" bases and a couple to be military/probes. As I expand more and more bases get each type of development.

By the time I get a 30 base empire, I may have 2-6 what I would call "super bases" with every energy enhancement and a bunch of crawled resources . There might be 2-6 dedicated support bases whose only real role is to pump out crawlers/trawlers. There would be 4-8 bases with military enhancements and any remaining bases might be " normal" . By normal, I mean they are not supported by other bases and get developed but in lesser priority. If I manage to get cash rich, these bases will look a lot like my "super-bases" ( facility wise) just with less of a crawler field. Once distances get longer or available good crawlable resources get less, well then my focus turns to developing infrastructure in other bases . . . .

Bottom line is that there are many good ways to develop. The foregoing is only one option. BUT IMHO

1. building a command centre and perimeter in every base is a mistake-- consider the military situation and the mineral production of the base

2. It is often a mistake to build research facilities in a low energy base when crawlers could easily bring energy to a nearby base with all the facilities-- The cost of say a research hospital could create about 4 crawlers. If the small base is producing less energy than those crawlers can easily crawl . . . .

Just my views-- like I said, you might have a perfectly valid and totally different way to develop.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER


Holy cow! How did you do that so fast? I'm in the same year as your save was and I was not even close to taking out the main cluster of Gaian bases, much less the Peacekeepers or the water bases scattered around. Thats just incredible!!

Thanks for the compliment . . . I do hope I have learned something about this game

I went airpower, airpower, airpower. I used drop colony podes due south of morgans island to make a route toward the gaians and hit them there while still fighting a war of attrition in the east of the morganite empire. I only finally went east after the gaian homeland was mine

The water bases were easy to pick up --Going Green and wealth got me the benefits of +2 ECON plus I started capturing IODs all over the place. At one point I had 5 of them in a little fleet with a missile skimship

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Flubber


Just my views-- like I said, you might have a perfectly valid and totally different way to develop.

Oh no, Flubber. I am nowhere near as good at this game as you are. Just trying to learn from the master

Asmodean

[Flubber]

Originally posted by HeymlicH



It's nothing wrong with building everything everywhere. I do this, too. Just delay building the not needed improvements to a later stage (usually I let the Gov. do this work when it's clear that I will win)

Actually there is a lot wrong with it if you do it without thought or consideration. If you have a great science base in the middle of your empire why on earth would you build a command centre or perimeter, or bioenhancement facility there Instead pump out a crawler a turn and watch the magic of that flowing through all the science enhancement.

With research and energy facilities, I can agree that MOST bases will get these but only after they have grown a bit. Building a research hospital to turn 6 labs into 9 ( minus some maintenance) in a size 3 base makes less sense to me than building 3 crawlers and crawling 9-12 energy into a really good base. If a base is bigger ( or about to pop-boom), or has really good terraforming , the analysis might go the other way.


As an aside, I almost NEVER build perimeters against the AI (some exceptions). My defensive strategy ( pre airpower) is based on agressive patrolling, probe teams and the use of roads to hit the enemy on the way in. Using sensors , you should never be suprised and one tile roads out from your base means a rover can rush out, attack and return to base. Command centres are usually only placed in frontier bases ( for regeneration at the front) or a mineral rich base that I plan to use to generate much of my army.

[Mongoose]

Flubber,

Keep in mind that the approach you describe here can be catastrophically short sighted in a game with random events turned on. In such a game, a single missing network node can cost you thousands of labs due to random event. Eschewing Biology labs in such a game can lead to devastating lost of forestation by Planetblight. You get the picture, I'm sure.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Flubber,

Keep in mind that the approach you describe here can be catastrophically short sighted in a game with random events turned on. In such a game, a single missing network node can cost you thousands of labs due to random event. Eschewing Biology labs in such a game can lead to devastating lost of forestation by Planetblight. You get the picture, I'm sure.

True very true --- I had not considered that factor due to the fact that PBEMs don't have random events on ( due to likely unfairness) so my my recent game experience has all been with this feature OFF-- If playing with it on, I would have to revisit the information on which facility prevents each disaster.


But your example makes my point. If a biology lab prevents deforestation, I would not bother with that in my Poor man's punsishment sphere where a size one base is crawling 4 or 5 mines. However, I might need a network node everywhere if the lack of one could cause the loss of ALL my research accumulation ( would put a crimp in many ICS styles if this event were at all common).

I recall random events to be uncommon enough, that if you protect yourself against the truly devastating ones, you should be ok.

[Gufnork]

I never bother protecting myself against random events. They're just not bad or common enough to warrant building useless facilities.

[CEO Aaron]

Try eating a meteor that reduces your capital and a couple of adjoining bases to a crater-lake. You might change your mind about that. Or maybe not...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Try eating a meteor that reduces your capital and a couple of adjoining bases to a crater-lake. You might change your mind about that. Or maybe not...

THat is a horrible event but what facility can stop it??

I had solar flares take out my satellite a couple of times and again was not sure what could stop it.

[AMD4EVER]

Originally posted by Gufnork
I never bother protecting myself against random events. They're just not bad or common enough to warrant building useless facilities.

Generally they are not that bad. However, losing a tech that is close to done early on really hurts. Losing 5000 or so energy during the mid game really hurts. Losing forests around a main military base really hurts at any point in the game. Having plagues in your largest base and having it spread to all the bases around it really hurts at any point in the game. All these things can be prevented. They can play a role in the game especially if your at war against a larger faction at the time it happens.

[RedFred]

I tend to go Gufnork's route. The opportunity cost of building every last 'disaster insurance' base improvement is much higher than a few negative random events.

Nothing can stop a meteor except lousy play. It is an extremely rare event which I have only seen twice while playing against the computer, both when I was way ahead on the might chart. And nothing stops the random events that knock out sats.

Obviously I'll build a lot of net nodes if I've gotten the VW. Otherwise science bases and some other well-developed bases will get them. I have never experienced more than two negative net node events in any one game. You should easily be able to outresearch the AI regardless.

Bio labs are a bad investment for most bases. Planet blight so what? Temporarily crawl a few nuts to the base in question, or if you are in a pop boom situation, just let some of the population die and move a couple more formers into the area.

The two events that drains your energy are even less of a problem. I keep my cash production high but my cash holdings down to almost nothing at the end of each turn. Energy Banks everywhere will actually hurt you (unless you nab the SP). For a small base your turn by turn maintanence costs could be greater than the EB benefit.

The Promethus Virus just reduces population in one city, iirc. Another good reason to have lots of bases. And to nab the HGP.

The hail is laughable as most land energy production from solars typically occurs in energy parks largely outside the base radius. As are the -1 nrg, -1 nuts, or -1 mins for 10 years unless it is a key base. But I don't think there is any way of defending against them.

Have I missed any negative random events? Honestly, they are not that bad.

[Flubber]

Hey redfred

Glad to see you around here, and on my side of an issue.

I think that the practical reality is that any of your better bases will have appropriate facilities to stop most negative consequences anyway.

[gwillybj]

Originally posted by RedFred
Have I missed any negative random events? Honestly, they are not that bad.

And they can be fun to watch Random Events: Facilities and Secret Projects

Originally posted by RedFred
The Promethus Virus just reduces population in one city, iirc. Another good reason to have lots of bases. And to nab the HGP.

The Prometheus Virus can be nasty. (In that Random Events thread.)

[Mead]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Flubber,

Keep in mind that the approach you describe here can be catastrophically short sighted in a game with random events turned on. In such a game, a single missing network node can cost you thousands of labs due to random event. Eschewing Biology labs in such a game can lead to devastating lost of forestation by Planetblight. You get the picture, I'm sure.

Specialization of bases is a risk that is worth taking.

With specialization you stack facilities that build upon the local geography and the facilities that already exist in the base.

See below three examples of specialization in SMAC
Assuming an early/mid game 15 base (and growing) empire:


1. SUPER SCIENCE CENTER

Why build an energy bank in every base when you can concentrate most of your energy/lab construction on one or two relatively safe bases, with good energy sources (make it the recipient of your energy park). Put in those bases an energy bank (increases energy allocated to energy reserves by 50%), research hospital (in addition to other things increases energy allocated to labs by 50%), tree farm (in addition to other things increases economy by 50%), fusion lab (increases economy by 50% and labs by 50%), children's crèche (in addition to other things increases efficiency by +2 enhancing energy retention). Give it some good mineral production so it can help build all these goodies quickly.

What you get is a money and tech making monster that, because of the cumulative effects of the facilities, produces far more cash and tech, quicker than if you tried to spread your facilities evenly throughout your empire.

When it comes to mid/late game and you start adding hybrid forests, and nanohospitals (Quantum Lab usually come available only as the game is ending) the effects intensify.

These effects are cumulative; I think it is like compound interest. If one of these bases has the ME and builds the Supercollider, ToE, Network Backbone, or space elevator (preferable all of them in the same base) that base is producing more tech per turn than the total of every other base (both yours and everyone else's) on planet combined.

NOTE
Make sure you protect the SSC well - from everything including PB's (make a ring of crawlers around it; even if you do have ODPs you could lose them due to a random event and someone could turn ugly).


MILITARY PRODUCTION LINES

Usually for me at least 2 bases- one for land, one for air. Usually a lot of bases for air since I like airpower so much. I usually have none for sea since I usually ignore the sea as much as I can until I have to deal with it.

Instead of placing morale enhancing facilities in every base pick the ones with a good mineral production, then:

Do what you have to enhance the production of minerals - make mines/boreholes/crawl minerals; genejack factory if available and other mineral enhancing facilities at this base before others.

2. FOR THE LAND MILITARY UNIT PRODUCER
Give it a command center plus a bioenhancement center (at least until when and if you get the cyborg factory). Give it lower priority for an aerospace center.

3. FOR THE AIR MILITARY UNIT PRODUCER
Give it the aerospace center and bioenhancement center (at least until when and if you get the cyborg factory). Do not waste your time or cash on the command center. It should be relatively far from the front lines and it is a better use of its early production time to pump out those high morale air units.


For the other bases
Let them develop, but at a slower rate than the key bases you are focusing on. Tend to use these other bases to build crawlers and formers to support your SSC and military production bases


That is a general plan of specialization. It will vary with the unique characteristics of whatever game you are playing.


Mead