Worst Faction

[Chaos Theory]

But Roze thinks your name is jazzy!

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Busta Mike,

I must dissent wrt your Pirate characterization.

Going landside early and often is exactly the way to play the pirates. Agreed the early extra cost of sea pods is prohibitive and agreed that growth penalty bites (hard).

But given the fact that you have felxibility out of the shoot and that allows land transports (which will be a first build even before a garrsion unit in order to allow colony pods to move ashore). They rock early. Build the land transports move your first colony pods inland. then use the land transports to aid your land formers and you've got a very effective early expansion paradigm going only limitted by your ability to get nuts and -1 growth penalty. (Nuts of course being in plentiful supply as long as you keep near the coast lines and have a solitary kelp trawler).

The land transport evens the playing field significantly for Sven & Co.

Mid game the lack of popboom is a prob but not insurmountable as pop growth comes mainly from scads of rich coastal squares.

[Curiosity]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
I'm suprised to see the Believers so high on the list there, given how wildly unpopular they tend to be on these boards. Then again, they have so few games, their sampling is almost doubly meaningless.

Yes, the believers are a good example of why the list isn't at all meaningful for small sizes. I was in one of those games as a replacement, and there's no way the believers would have won - except that they allied with the Spartans, who were lead by Misotu. In the other win, the player in control was buster. No surprise there.

[UnityScoutChopper]

Regarding the pirates, also keep in mind that the pirates' -1 growth is really not much of a penalty on transcend level, as generally too much growth is as bad on that level as too little due to drone control problems, and the pirates tend to have plenty of nutrients anyway. In fact, I tend to find the largest problem with them KEEPING UP with their growth potential. It's a bit like support vs. industry -- in certain situations, you're better off with high support (raising your mineral production by 1 or 2, that is, by anywhere from say 33% to infinity, in the case of 0 --> 1) than high industry.

The real killer with the pirates is their inefficiency combined with the typically large distances between their bases and their capital. Other factions CAN avoid low efficiency. The pirates usually MUST avoid low efficiency, or they will soon be not only science-crippled, but also dead broke. This means that frontier/planned/?, which otherwise can be quite useful in many situations, is generally out of the question, and frontier/green/? is also out of the question as it means zero growth. Thus unless the pirates can afford to run Demo to unlock the possibilities of Planned or Green, they usually MUST run Simple or FM, making them a bit inflexible. Meanwhile their base limit remains low even when running Demo/FM.

My vote for their core strategy, therefore, is land bases but sea (not land) transports, investing heavily in fishing for artifacts, and using those to build the HGP. This makes hyper-early FM a palatable option for them.

USC

[AMD4EVER]

Originally posted by Curiosity
Hive 11/18 - 61%
Drones 7/13 - 54%
Believers 2/4 - 50%
PKs 8/20 - 40%
Pirates 4/10 - 40%
Spartans 3/9 - 33%
University 7/28 - 25%
CyC 2/8 - 25%
Gaians 4/19 - 21%
Cult 1/5 - 20%
Angels 1/5 20%
Morgan 2/19 - 10%

If this is right, then how can anyone debate that Morgan isn't the worst. Of course they are the worst. They simply were not made to deal with war especially once they are -5 police, -3 planet, -3 support, and -2 moral when running their democracy, FM, and wealth. Don't forget as well that their bases are often 3 smaller in size compared to their enemies. Morgan was designed to be a builder. In the modern world, the nation of Morgan would be powerful and respected, but in the world of AC they are weak and ready to be destroyed.

[Mongoose]

The probelm isn't with the Morgan faction; it's with the Morgan players.

Playing Morgan well is unlike playing well with any of the other factions. Most players never bother to learn how to do so.

There is a very great difference in playing with an economy based on minerals vs. playing with an economy based on energy.

I have had pretty good success playing Morgan in competitive (if not always structured tournament) PBEMs against some heavyweight competion.

[joncnunn]

This just means that the Apolyton tournemy game players are full of early warmonglers.

Originally posted by Curiosity
Well, the results are in - here's the last word on the matter... yeah, right.

I've compiled the stats from the Apolyton tournament games (too much time on my hands) and here they are - the factions from strongest to weakest, based on games awarded points out of games played.

Hive 11/18 - 61%
Drones 7/13 - 54%
Believers 2/4 - 50%
PKs 8/20 - 40%
Pirates 4/10 - 40%
Spartans 3/9 - 33%
University 7/28 - 25%
CyC 2/8 - 25%
Gaians 4/19 - 21%
Cult 1/5 - 20%
Angels 1/5 20%
Morgan 2/19 - 10%

Of course, this is all of quite questionable significance.

However, the very poor performance of Morgan and the Gaians, and the very strong showing by the Hive and Drones, is interesting.

[joncnunn]

That's part of the problem: That's a poor SC way to play Morgon.

Efficency is worth so much more energy that you'll get a lot more money as Morgon with Democracy + Green + Wealth than Democracy + FM + Wealth. (And without the ecology and police problems of FM.)

The -3 pop is countered by tighten base spacing.

Originally posted by AMD4EVER

If this is right, then how can anyone debate that Morgan isn't the worst. Of course they are the worst. They simply were not made to deal with war especially once they are -5 police, -3 planet, -3 support, and -2 moral when running their democracy, FM, and wealth. Don't forget as well that their bases are often 3 smaller in size compared to their enemies. Morgan was designed to be a builder. In the modern world, the nation of Morgan would be powerful and respected, but in the world of AC they are weak and ready to be destroyed.

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Busta Mike,

I must dissent wrt your Pirate characterization.

Going landside early and often is exactly the way to play the pirates. Agreed the early extra cost of sea pods is prohibitive and agreed that growth penalty bites (hard).

But given the fact that you have felxibility out of the shoot and that allows land transports (which will be a first build even before a garrsion unit in order to allow colony pods to move ashore). They rock early. Build the land transports move your first colony pods inland. then use the land transports to aid your land formers and you've got a very effective early expansion paradigm going only limitted by your ability to get nuts and -1 growth penalty. (Nuts of course being in plentiful supply as long as you keep near the coast lines and have a solitary kelp trawler).

The land transport evens the playing field significantly for Sven & Co.

Mid game the lack of popboom is a prob but not insurmountable as pop growth comes mainly from scads of rich coastal squares.

Fair enough. You are of course exactly right wrt what the best strat for Sven is, but I still don't see how this make them better than any other faction. Who is worse in your opinion?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Good question Busta.

You know I really don't know.

Pre SMAX patching I woulda give a nod to Morgie for being a builder with an inability to pop boom. Now he oozes energy and can finally golden age pop boom.

Guess if push comes to shove I'ld vote Santi or Pirates despite the fact that I love to play both of them. Santi is a good vanilla but no doubt about it the industry hit bites hard. Mid game everyone gets elites (or should be getting them) so the window of opportunity is early game elites. No ability to overcome the industry hit with wealth also hurts. Every other faction in mid game will likely have ++ industry ratings by either going planned (and most likely pop booming) or by running wealth simply amplifying th problem Santi is going to have.

Pirates you've touched on their weaknesses and I agree withthem. The early game is not as dreadful for them as one normally thinks. The real problem as alluded to by USC is the efficiency. Whats more is the first two bases are going to be sea bases. (Which on the one hand is great because you get the free pressure dome. Yippee!!!) Morevoer though what you really get is two bases that are somewhat cut off fromthe rest of your empire, especially if you have decided to go to land side on two differing continents. Internal lines of support are a problem. Rushing crawlers to finish SP's is limitted to one continent or another. Bringing up reinforcements is a problem etc.

USC was on the money wrt to Pirates and efficiency and hence SE choices. FM is a natch for Pirates pre Demo days if you can stand the drones from an already drone prone faction due to bearacracy drones/limits.

OTOH if your playing low fungus, IMO hands down Fung boy is the loser.

[Lazerus]

Yay for the Hive !!

Morgans poor ranking could be due to inexperienced players playing him or the fact that us early warmongers know what a pain he is abit later in the game once hes actually got a defense and enough energy to create a sun, therefore he either becomes submissive or dies. I tend to do the same to any Uni player nearby aswell.

[Lazerus]

ps, are there any saved games of how misotu plays ? I keep seeing that name mentioned as a great player and all the wins associated with her

[AMD4EVER]

So basically everyone accepts that Morgan will lose more games than any other faction in human v human competition because he is an easy target right from the beginning, yet no one agrees that this makes him the worst faction??? Also there is agreement that everyone who tries to play him is horrible at it yet this argument isn't used against any other faction, and Morgan still isn't the worst faction?

I guess the real problem here is that no one really wants to commit to declaring any faction the worst based on simple facts. I find it hard to believe that anyone would essentially say that he will lose more than anyone else and is the hardest to play, yet he isn't the worst.

[Chaunk]

Surely it's just that the factions are pretty well balanced, meaning that most people can find something good in any of them?

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER
So basically everyone accepts that Morgan will lose more games than any other faction in human v human competition because he is an easy target right from the beginning, yet no one agrees that this makes him the worst faction???

Nope, I don't agree with that at all. Even if Morgan really was the weakest faction, player skill and opening position have SO much more to do with your success in this game than any minor difference in the relative merits of a particular faction.

Also there is agreement that everyone who tries to play him is horrible at it yet this argument isn't used against any other faction, and Morgan still isn't the worst faction?

I play Morgan, I am GREAT at it. I'm also good at playing Yang, Miriam and Domai, and I'll concede that all of them are better factions, overall, than Morgan. I've played plenty of Sparta, and I've determined, despite my love of the flavor, that her industry penalty is wildly oppressive.

I guess the real problem here is that no one really wants to commit to declaring any faction the worst based on simple facts. I find it hard to believe that anyone would essentially say that he will lose more than anyone else and is the hardest to play, yet he isn't the worst.

Present some facts that aren't in dispute, and maybe someone will come up with a conclusion based on those facts.

Here are some facts about Morgan:

He's weak at the beginning, but gets very strong in the midgame. Properly developed, he can expand faster than any other faction. His support limitations encourage players to make bad defensive decisions, which can lose games in a hurry. With a solid opening, left unmolested, Morgan can run away with EVERY SP in the GAME.
Good play with Morgan means you HAVE to know how to make the best use of your Energy Credits, you can't just switch to planned/police and rely on your huge support and industry to overwhelm your enemies.