Something very odd with SMAC....

[Depp]

When you fight mindworms, how come the bomberpilots suffer like the infantery ?
Really bizarr, i mean, 10000 meters up in hte air you launch a bomb, how are you gonna psi something that you don´t even know exist ?

[WhiteElephants]

Or better yet. Why would a bomber bomb something that he does know even exists? And if a tree fell in the forest and no one was around to hear it fall would it still make a noise?


I'm sorry I couldn't resist, I apologize for myself.

[Adam_Smith]

We are expected to use our imagination. After all psi combat is not real.

[joer]

One simple explanation, really. It's only a suggestion, nothing authorative:

Mindworms create waves (call them bioresonance waves, if you want) that distribute all over the area. Those waves can go high up in the air and go through steel, just like regular radio waves.

Once those waves hit a brain, they manipulate the neurochemical reactions in that brain to evoce hallucinations, which will let the owner of that brain loose control.

That explanation works far better for bombers than for anybody else...most pilots suffering from hallucinations have problems flying their plane.
And the bomber pilot would try to bomb the worms itself -- those do exist physically. His attack is just hindered by those hallucinative waves.

The mind worms don't even need to know you exist, just like the radio sender doesn't need to know you have an antenna on your house.

noise of falling tree: I looked it up in my lexicon. They state that the definition of noise encompasses only an accoustic wave. So, by that definition, yes, the falling tree still makes a noise.
Take on the definition of 'accoustic wave perceived by an ear', and things look different.

-A lazy Saturday morning joer, taking up any random thread to bite.

[Depp]

Well, if the tree was in vacuum it wouldn´t generate any accustic wave, since nothing could carry the wave. But the tree might fall in a Hollywood movie vaccum, where noises are still heard

Psi Combat not real ? Get out of here !

[Chowlett]

The tree was, however, said to be in a forest, which implies lots of trees growing. For trees to grow, they need CO2, so they can't be in a vacuum. Therefore, a tree falling in a forest will always make a noise.

[Helium Pond]

Glib, scientific attempts to construct a definitive answer for the ancient koan entirely miss the point. A koan is a paradox intended to focus the mind towards enlightenment.

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear, does it still make a noise?"

The question is aimed at getting one to contemplate the fact that all reality is percieved through the senses, and therefore, what is real? By breaking down the hypothesis--a tree falling in the forest--into smaller observed phenomena, such as acoustic waves, you haven't answered the question, merely re-phrased it. Now the question becomes, "If a tree falls in the forest with no one there to hear, does it still generate acoustic waves?" Then you can define what acoustic waves are, and I can re-phrase the question to accomodate that definiton. This is a common mistunderstanding of the riddle. Many intellectuals confuse definition with explanation. This is a mistake.

What's being pondered here, is, does the world exist when we're not perceiving it? Most people will automatically answer yes, but how can you prove it? There is no way to prove that anything exists beyond our experience of it.

Thus, it is not a question designed to be answered. If there is any such thing as a final answer to the question, it would have to be no. "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear, does it still make a noise?" Of course not. Why? Because there is no tree, there is no forest. There's just words on a computer screen making you imagine these things. On the other hand, perhaps the imagined world is just as real as the experiential world. In which case, yes. You see? No final answer.

[joer]

Very good and interesting explanation, HP.

Now, once again, I realize why I don't like koans.

The original question 'Does a falling tree make a sound if nobody hears it?' sounds very much like a scientific question. If one accepts that, the answer is trivial (it depends on the definition of sound), because one is inclined to already accept the underlying scientific 'common-place' worldview that there is a reality without anybody perceiving it. That's what we learn in natural sciences at school, at least.

The underlying question 'Is there a reality without perception?' is not so easily answered. However, stating the question in the above phrase makes it at least identifiable as philosophical question, as opposed to the original one.

Bottom line: If they want to ask me about reality, why do they keep bugging me about falling trees?

Oh, and I totally agree that you cannot prove it one way or the other. Most likely. Damn, we can't even prove that anything we experience exists, nor can we be very sure of it.
-joer, still bored, going off on tangents...

[Depp]

Now you are jumping to conclusions, there was CO2 until a few seconds before the tree fell, then the space balls came and took it away, lead by dark helmet. It´s true !!!
Hence.... no sound

[Depp]

Bla Bla Bla Bla

[Helium Pond]

Continuing to wander way way way off topic:

"Bottom line: If they want to ask me about reality, why do they keep bugging me about falling trees?"

Well, as far as I understand it, which is admittedly not very far, the idea is to move you past experiencing things with your brain. It's kind of like when they posed that logical question to that robot on Star Trek. Actually, it's very like that. Except that the robot exploded from the process, whereas supposedly humans can achieve enlightenment. The point is to get your brain to try really hard to do something it can't do, in the hopes that it will eventually just "turn off", allowing you to experience reality directly, without interference from the distorting prism of your mind.

But I wouldn't advise trying this without the guidance of a qualified zen master, otherwise you might go into some cosmic freak-out mode and eventually turn into the Zodiac Killer. In light of which, perhaps "Bla Bla Bla" is the best response, after all.

[joer]

Getting back to the AC theme and managing the best late night answer I can think of:

Once we have achieved such a high technology as well as spiritual development that we can acquire the secrets of Creation and the secrets of this earth, our best talents might be able to let their conscience transcend their perception and experience.

However, we're not that far yet. If we're reallyreally good, we might make it somewhere around 2170, though. I heard some people do.

Hey, I think that cuts a really neat curve between good ole' Kant and Alpha Centauri.
Of course, I don't buy any of this, but it's still cool that such a finely tuned strategic game can even attempt to offer such a depth.
-joer

[MosesPresley]

"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear, does it still make a noise?"

If no one was there, how do you know it fell?

[Famyn]

The answer to the question is in fact, "No, a tree falling in the woods with no one around does not in fact make noise."

Reason? The impact of the tree on the ground and potentially against other branches and trees simply creates high levels of vibration waves. If no living creature is in applicable distance (namely the distance it would take for the waves to lose so much power as too be unnoticeable) with the proper equipment (namely ears) to translate these vibration waves into something their brains can understand (namely noise), then the tree will make no such noise, and the waves will simply die out.

You can consider these vibration waves sound, as sound exists in the form of vibration waves, but without a mind with the proper sensory resepticles, regardless of intelligence level, to give them meaning, they are nothing more then waves.

The same can be said about no one being in the area to see it fall. Sight is nothing more then your brain putting together the sensory information from photon waves together into something more useable to you or whoever is 'seeing' the event or object. Remember - you don't actually 'see' things that are happening around you, you are simply picking up stray photon waves that have bounced off or been emmitted from nearby (or potentially not nearby) matter and energy sources. Without a brain to make these photon waves mean anything, they are simply photon waves and nothing more. Sure, the matter still changes locations in accordance with the rules of gravity, but without a mind to see the event happen, without the ears to translate to vibration waves into understandable sound, and without the mental knowledge to group atoms into larger, understandable objects like 'tree' and 'ground', or to even understand the base concept of gravity, then the things that happen are merely atoms that are bonded in certain ways acting the way they should according to the laws of the universe. The universe does not care if a bunch of atoms are a 'tree' or the 'ground'. It takes a creature with a mind to care about such things.

Anyone want to buy a bridge?

[Depp]

But someone could have bugged the tree and recorded the sound... How about that ?
And the anwser was not bla bla bla, it was bla bla bla bla, stop missquoting me :/