Self Destruct Units

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

For those who don't or haven't bothered to use self destructing units they can be effective.

It is normally thought that the damage yielded from a self destructing unit is as follows:

hits = (weapon strength * reactor)/2 *100

This allows a fusion reactor powered unit with a fusion laser weapon to eliminate any fission based unit. Likewise it will elimate any and all adjacent natives.

Has anyone experimented with arty. It ocurrs to me that a reasonably high powered arty unit bomabarding units in the open and then self destructing could have the potential for eliminating massive stacks of units. So say you've got a chaos arty with fusion reactor, you then bomabrd and hope to inflict 20% damage to said stack of units. Self destruct the arty and take out the stack.

Anyone tried this?

[Cybergod]

I never used self-destruct as an offensive measure so I wouldn't know. The worst I ever done was explode a fusion foil probe team near a Believer vessel which I couldn't subvert And I didn't cause any damage... I also once self-destr. a subverted scout in enemy territory but that didn't cause any damage either...

So is that equasion from the game are have you calculated it? Either way, it will be most useful...

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I can't take credit for the calculation. It belongs an intellectual property of the folks over at Civgaming.net

In any event self destruct of probe teams, formers and transports I am led to believe cause no damage as weapon strength is 0 (despite for mineral costing purposes I believe they are weapon = 4).

Also units in bases and I believe bunkers receive no damage from self destructs.

[CEO Aaron]

Seems to me that self-destructing is a tactic best used when either A) You're hopelessly outnumbered by a large amount of inferior units or B) You were planning on decommissioning a unit to begin with, but don't want to bother to haul it to a friendly base to recycle the minerals.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

CEO,

For the most part you may be correct. But it is useful against factions like Miriam or Yang that do rely on numbers. My thought is that in this situation it might be helpful to use the arty and then self destruct.

OTOH tho self destruc has been used for a long time to great effect.

Consider it against a field of crawlers and your chopper is on its last legs (4 turns out). Simply bring your chopper to bear so that it is adjacent to as many crawlers/trawlers as possible and then light it off. In one fell swoop you can elimate up to 8 crawlers/trawlers as a coup de grace.

Consider it a gambit of use when under siege by a faction that has D:AP and you have yet to get it. THis allows you an opportunity to defend yourself for hopefully a few turns until you can get D:AP.

Consider insertion of a best weapon best reactor drop unit and then setting it off. Any unit in the open becomes fair game to this (realizing of course that orbital insertions are a very late game thing).

Finally consider using it when under worm rape situations and bringing an air unit into self destruct.

Many different situations that may cuase you to reconsider the usage of such a ploy.


Og

[Flubber]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Seems to me that self-destructing is a tactic best used when either A) You're hopelessly outnumbered by a large amount of inferior units or B) You were planning on decommissioning a unit to begin with, but don't want to bother to haul it to a friendly base to recycle the minerals.

No It can actually be very effective even with relative tech parity when an invader is approaching with a stack of units with accompanying arty and air cover. Essentially the bigger the stack, the more effective it is.

[Mongoose]

One correction, Ogie. You couldn't get eight crawlers/trawlers that way...you would have no path to the center square. I think the most would be seven.

[big_canuk]

In a current game I used it well prior to fusion reactors and fusion weapons.

"Oh, no. There are 2 probes(both hurt) with 2 interceptors over them, and I have only one air superiority unit in range. " So I self destructed *3* missile noodles and 1 laser noodle. I used up 14 rows of minerals to kill 16 rows, and I saved my base from 2 probe actions.

Note that the formula above for self destruct damage is always rounded down. Thus a fission scout causes no damage. A fission gatling gun would cause only 2 damage.

Super stacks work great. But they *must* be accompanied by enough formers to build bunkers to protect them from self destruct.

Also to note, the formula for self destruct damage was know well before CGN was even a glimmer in someones eye. But kudos to CGN for making this type of information readily available to all smac gamers.

bc

[MariOne]

Originally posted by big_canuk
A fission gatling gun would cause only 2 damage.

Sorry, maybe I'm getting something wrong, and I'm not more into testing to much lately (and I admit I almost never actually used self-destruct, exactly because I never wanted to put myself to study it thoroughly enough to be confident about when it would be convenient to use it.... aahhh....)

OgOg: hits = (weapon strength * reactor)/2 *100

fission gatling
hits = (5*1) / 2 * 100 =
=5/2 * 100
=2.5 * 100

let's round it down (before multiplying), as you say

= 2 * 100
= 200

That's just "a bit" different from 2
Unless you mean this is expressed in %, that is 200%, that is 2 units.

And what should it mean, that it would kill any two units from *each* adjacent stack to the self-destructing unit, no dice-roll?

sorry again, I read the article at CGN but could not follow the details offhand...
And never saw the issue discussed here before...

[Cybergod]

Does the damage you implicate on other units depend on your destructive unit's strength? Eg. Would a 20% of energy left Chaos Infantry have the same effect as a 100% energy unit?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ahh Mario,

You of course are correct

Hits are expressed without the 100. The 100 was my own convetnion to express damage percent against fission/natives units only. In reality the hits are strictly the expression sans 100 multiplier. The rounding takes place on the hits number.

I suppose proper expression of the formula would then be:

Hits = Int(weapon * reactor)/2

Where max hits deleivered can not exceed 10*reactor.

I beleive Tau Ceti discovered that mega weapons such as singularity laser etc. will not allow damage greater than 10 hits/reactor level but instead the damage is capped at 10/reactor.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Cyber,

Damage from self destruct of your unit is done regardless of health of your own unit. That is to say a 95% damaged 10-1-1*2 unit is just as effective as a fully healthy 10-1-1*2 unit.

Also damage is regardless of morale.

Og

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MariOne

And what should it mean, that it would kill any two units from *each* adjacent stack to the self-destructing unit, no dice-roll?

sorry again, I read the article at CGN but could not follow the details offhand...
And never saw the issue discussed here before...

Damage imposed to adjacent units is dealt without combat dice rolls. All surrounding units are blasted with X hits of damage per the above calc.

So as an example say there is a stack of 10 needlejets that are fission reactor based. A single 10-1-1*2 infantry unit that self destructs next to that stack will eradicate the entire stack of 10 needlejets as each and every unit adjacent to the self destructing unit is damaged.

Likewise any combination of units that can succeed in detonating the requisiste damage points will eliminate that same stack. So combinations of (2) 8-1-1 and (1) 4-1-1 will result in the same effect.

The ability to resist teh detonation attack of a self destruct unit is mitigated only by

1) being in a base

2) being in a bunker

3) having enough hit points to survive a blast where
Fission reacotr provides 10 hps
fusion 20 hps
quantum 30 hps
singularity 40 hps (after appropraite patch)

Og

[MariOne]

there is still something obscure to me as to how the damage is dealt and distributed between victims.

From posts here and at CGN, it would look like the fromula should read:

HitPoints damage inflicted = INT(W*R/2) * 10

{you must include the /2 *inside* the parenthesis, or the INT operator is moot }

From your examples I assume that "unused" destruct damage is carried over onto next units in the stack.
You say a "Fusion Fusion" unit (10-x-x*2) would destroy 10 Fission Jets.

From your formula, this makes hits = 10, and this would be enough to only kill ONE fission unit with 10 HPs.
Maybe your formula calculates "whole units".
For HitPoints, you should multiply by 10 as I wrote above.
In your example this would yield
HP=(W*R/2)*10=(10*2/2)*10=100HP
Each Fission Jet has 10HP, so the math would fit.

Does this mean that if I detonate a missile Fisson unit, HP inflicted = 30, and I have two Fission units stacks adjacent, one with 4 units and the other with 5 units, I'd kill 3 units from EACH/EVERY stack, leaving one unit alive (and unscathed) in the first stack, and 2 units alive in the 2nd?

What if the stacked units are different, in which order would the game pick them (as defender's armor apparently has no role in this)?
And what if I have units with different reactors inthe stack?
Say I have 1 Fusion and 3 Fission in the adjacent stack, and I detonate my 6-1-1*1.
I inflict 30 HP damage: will I take down 3 Fissions and leave the Fusion undisturbed, or will I take down 1 Fusion and 1 Fission, leaving 2 other Fissions standing?

And what if the defending stack is partially damaged?
Will the inflicted HP be consumed only as needed?
Detonating a Laser Fission ( (2*1 / 2)*10 = 10HP), can I take down two stacked units, if one has only 4HP and the other 6HP left?

Finally, are your OWN adjacent units immune from detonation damage? And your Pactmate's?

What's ther after "finally"?
j/k
allow one more language question, and forgive my dificulty with english.
You say
"the ability to resist... is mitigated" by being in a base/bunker
I understand this as if in a base/bunker the defender's resistance is made lower... which is the contrary of common sense...
Should I understand that *the attack* is mitigated, and inside a base/bunker defenders are "somewhat" more resistant to detonation attacks?
Or are they *totally* immune???

[MariOne]

Dang, something is not quite coming together yet.


you say

Hits = Int(weapon * reactor)/2

Where max hits deleivered can not exceed 10*reactor.

but then you say

A single 10-1-1*2 infantry unit that self destructs next to that stack will eradicate the entire stack of 10 needlejets as each and every unit adjacent to the self destructing unit is damaged.

with your formula,
W=10
R=2
hits=10

Max damage =10*R=20

but wat are those 10 "hits"? If they are Hitpoints, the are not enought to kill 10 Jets as you say.

If, as I got it, the formula is instead

HP=int(W*R/2)*10

then your unit would inflict 100HP damage.
But then, as for big_canuck's max_damage limit, you would only be able to inflict 20HP dmage, enough to kill only TWO fission Jets and not the whole stack of 10...

Mind, there would be a difference of a scale of 10 between the 2 formulas, and this would make quite a difference in the effectiveness of self-destruction technique...

Please clarify.