Slowing Down Late Game Research

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Gas,

I can't recall offhand a goodish number but something like double that seems to ring a bell.

Let me think.....

Thats say 20 squares worked average energy of 4 = 80
Trawlers including thermocline @ 6 energy ea = 60+ trawlers

That seems like a lot of trawlers, seems like it normally was about 40ish trawlers.

Ohh but I also forgot the energy sats and trade. And a largish portion of labs come in about that time as transcendi but that doesn't show as raw energy.

I can't recall its been too long and I wiped out all my saved games.

Sorry

Og

[Adalbertus]

Just an idea who like to mess in the Tech tree (which, I think, is possible, never tried that): Put a lot of do-nothing technologies in the tech tree. The discovery rate remains the same, but the really interesting things are delayed. That way, all sort of fine-tuning is possible.

[spartak]

Thanks Og

I better start crawlering but then I'm so far ahead I don't know if its worth it.

[wheathin]

How many techs can you add to the tree? I know there is one "User tech." Can you also use the "deleted" techs (2)? Can you add more to the end of the list?

[Yxklyx]

Seems like changing the modifiers to in aplhax.txt after the games begins has no effect.

Actually, that's not true. I changed this value to 10 and my research time for the next tech (Transendant Thought) went from 1 turn to 10 turns. I had to play a turn in order for it to take effect. So, one could conceivably take a break (save and reload with the changed value) every so often.

[Yxklyx]

So one rule that might help:

Whenever you discover a tech that gives you a new Reactor or Future Social Engineering Choice do the following:

1. save and exit
2. modify the alphax.txt file by reducing the tech discovery rate (from 100 to 50 then to 25 and finally to 10 - only three changes max per game).
3. start up and load the game

[wheathin]

Blake, I tried out your idea. I like it (progressive RESEARCH penalties). Question though:
If everyone starts out at +5, and that's the max, doesn't that wipe out the advantages of the Universiy and Aki-Zeta?

[Yxklyx]

I'm not sure I like Blake's last idea. Knowledge now only gives a +1 over Survival and Fundamentalism is effectively -3 since Simple is +1. Knowledge isn't as attractive as before and Fundy is much less so.

[mrdynamic]

Blakes idea has potential but Im not sure I like it either for the reason that Yxklyx stated and also because, now it allows for any faction to give themsevles a +5 research setting at any point of the game......Not that the AI would take advantage of this , but I do not think I would bother to use any other SE settings .. unless it was an emergency and I had to use Fundel and Power, or just wanted a temp boost in funds or something.

Advancing your tech rate, although not neccesary to win, is still somthing I always tend to always strive for, as lets face it, having tech another faction does not is an advantage in one way or another.

Getting rid of all lab enhancing research facilities, as stated by Blakes, from the game would be a good change in that no faction (like me) could take advantage of it.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by Yxklyx
So one rule that might help:

Whenever you discover a tech that gives you a new Reactor or Future Social Engineering Choice do the following:

1. save and exit
2. modify the alphax.txt file by reducing the tech discovery rate (from 100 to 50 then to 25 and finally to 10 - only three changes max per game).
3. start up and load the game

I like this a lot. Just remember to restore the original settings before starting your next game.

That realistically means you'll change at fusion, thought control then cybernetic though.

Also, given that Singularity Reactors frequently come before Quantum on my normal research path, I'll be loath to take quantum until as late as possible in most games. Is quantum even required for the ascent? *Fitz searches his memory*

[Yxklyx]

I had double blind research in mind with this scheme so you couldn't plan on the techs when the change occured. I don't recall - does Thought Control and Cybernetic usually come before the last two reactors?

[wheathin]

Fundy already has a tech penalty - nobody goes into Fundy expecting to get a tech lead. Even compared to Frontier, Fundy is still a choice for war. And you will still want Demo for the pop booms. Both Demo and Fundy are good choices in certain situations. The real loser in Gov't choices is PS. But PS was always underpowered anyway...

For the Economic choices, FM and Green are still clear choices for certain situations, as is Planned for the boom. And all are still better than Simple.

[wheathin]

Here's my own re-done SE choices...

SMAC Social Engineering Choices
Number in paren is "point value"
Econ(2) Tal(2) Res Ind Grw Eff Sup Pla(.75) Mor(.5) Pol(.5) Prb(.5) Pla(.5)

New Choices	POSITIVE        		NEGATIVE      Total
Politics                           
Frontier:      	1 Research                       		1
Pol St(C2):    	2 Pol   2 Sup   1 Res        	2 Eff  	        2
Democ(E2):	2 Eff   2 Grw   	       	2 Sup           2
Fund(D2): 	2 Prb   1 Tal   2 Mor  		2 Res		2
Economics
Simple:         1 Research             				1
FM(B2):   	2 Econ  		    	3 Pla   5 Pol   0
Planned(D2):    2 Grw   1 Ind                   2 Eff   	2
Green(E3):      2 Pla   2 Eff   1 Mor           2 Grw   	2
Values
Survival:      				          		0
Power(C4):     	2 Mor   2 Sup  	2 Pla	   	2 Ind   	2.5
Knowl(B4):     	2 Res   1 Pla 	1 Eff		2 Prb   	2.75
Wealth(B3):    	1 Eco   1 Pla	1 Ind		2 Mor    	2.75

[gwillybj]

this will slow you down

In alpha(x).txt:
50, ; Technology discovery rate as a percentage of standard

Tech Stagnation ON
Spoils of War OFF
Blind Research ON or OFF (it won't matter)*
No Unity Scattering (few, if any, techs from pods)

Play as Believers with Fundamentalist + Planned + Power + Eudaimonic

*It won't matter how you research (Directed, Blind, or Double-Blind). You'll be running around with Lasers and Synthmetal for a long time.

[Blake]

Not quite, look at the title of the thread:
Slowing Down Late Game Research

The problem is the exponential growth of the economy overpowers the increase in tech cost - doubling the costs of the techs achieves little - other than making the early game drag by even more - the late game will still speed by.


Thought:
Hypothetically speaking, if you were to redesign the SMAC tech tree to increase the length of the late game, the way to do it would be to increase the base tech costs, and move several of the super-economy boosters into the early game. (Orbital Power Transmitters being one, super-formers, soil enrichers, advanced specialists, hybrid forests, hab domes to name just a few more).

This would mean your economy would build up quicker in the early game, but have less momentum later in the game due to fewer economy boosters. Thus, making the major fruits of the late tech tree military techs, increasing incentive to use the toys ("nothing else to build"). Ofc, crawlers and pop-boom would also have to be eliminated/crippled to prevent exploitation of the early economy boosters.

Making the early game slower is never going to achieve any meaningfull reduction in late game speed.