Forest Energy

[Yxklyx]

In the manual it says that forests produce 0 energy but I've always seen them produce 1 energy. Is this a bug in the manual or in the game? If they produced only 0 then mines sure would look more interesting than they currently do.

[bondetamp]

I haven't read the manual in ages, but forest tiles do produce one nutrient, two minerals and one energy before any improvements.

[Enigma]

The AI is also programmed to think that forests produce 0 energy, this is why you see them produce so few forests, they will frequently build farms and solars/mines on flat squares.

The entire Farm+Mine combo is the worst terraforming combo that you can get in the game we play- but the AI builds it a lot due to the fact that it underestimates forests.

[Yxklyx]

I had a feeling that was the case. What really are the use of mines anyway? They seem a very poor terraforming choice (was this covered in another thread). Shortly after you can get all 4 minerals from the mine you can build boreholes anyway right? Unless all you have is rocky squares I don't see much point in them. The only possible exception I see is when you have a mineral bonus on rocky so you can get 4 minerals HOWEVER for 4 extra turns you can level that rocky terrain and plant a forest which will give you 4 minerals PLUS 1 food and 1 energy. Does anyone ever build mines?

[aaglo]

Boreholes cannot be built anywhere you want
I tend to mine+road rocky squares and crawl for the minerals - it is the cheapest production boost.

[Flubber]

I do mine some rocky squares since it takes less time than boreholes and I often plan to use crawlers in any event

. . . and yxklyx -- a mineral bonus on a rocky square is a dream and I would never clear and forest it. A mine and road will yield 7 minerals IIRC making it a perfect square to crawler OR you could always borehole it. I DO tend to forest non-rocky mineral specials for the quick surge in production.

Mines make sense on rocky squares when you plan to use crawlers and are pursuing a mineral strategy for quick builds. Only a limited number of squares can be boreholes in any event and nothing else (absent specials) gets to 4 mins in a square. I know a forest with the HF facility is superior production overall but that requires an available worker and the time to build .


Don't get me wrong-- I like forests (and the TF /HF combo)and use them a lot for MOST of my bases but sometimes I plunk a base down in a rocky area and know that the plan for it is a couple of boreholes and a bunch of crawlered mines. I just plant some bases with the idea that they won't grow-- and in fact, I don't really want them to grow too much since the idea is to have a crawler/unit producing base that requires little in the way of drone control

Just some ideas . . .

[wheathin]

Mine-Road-Mineral Bonus tiles give you 7 mins. That's the best you can do without a Borehole, and better than a Borehole without a Min bonus. And, you can do it in the early game even if you don't get the Weather Paradigm, and you can do it on slopes and hills.

I agree that Mines should be more attractive, but minerals are too important in the early game to be easily acquired. Mines are like Echelon Mirrors in that regard: nice idea, but the game dynamics prevent them from being truly effective.

As a change, you could try decreasing the build time for mines - at least then there would be a tradeoff relative to forests. Or you could increase the build time for forests. For a tile improvement that is so powerful in the early game, and self-replicating to boot, 4 turns seems like WAAAY too fast.

[Fitz]

I end many games having only mines & forests & boreholes (where possible), with the very occasional condensor on a nutrient special.

My upland areas with 10+ rocky squares always look a little bit like the Welsh coal mining district.

[Yxklyx]

Isn't the max for a mine 6?

1 (rocky) + 2 (mine) + 1 (road) + 2 bonus = 6

What am I missing?

[MariOne]

Just one detail, misguidingly documented in the datalinks.
A road on a mine has TWO bonus effects (cumulative):
It gives +1min on rock
It gives +1min on a Mineral Special

Let's look at it from the PoV of what you can find on the map and what you can do on it to increase Minerals with a mine.

Flat tile: Mine(+1) from 0 to 1 (road ineffective)
Rolling: Mine(+1) from 1 to 2 (road ineffective)
Rocky: Mine(+2) from 1 to 3, add road(+1) to get to 4

With a Mineral Special Resource on the tile:
Flat tile: Mine(+1) from 2 to 3, add road(+1) to get to 4
Rolling: Mine(+1) from 3 to 4, add road(+1) to get to 5
Rocky: Mine(+2) from 3 to 5, add road(+1+1) to get to 7

Of course adding the road ona a tile before the mine gives no increase, you get it all in one when you complete the mine.
So when you compare the terraforming times you should not forget the formerturns needed to road the tile (3 for a rocky tile, +1 if also rivered...) in order to obtain the maximum yield.
As you should count the 8 formerturns to level the tile if you want to apply a productive terraforming other than Mine or BH.

[wheathin]

As far as the original question goes, forest energy is crucial to most human player strategies in the early game. Forests give balanced resources and still allow energy. But, and this is crucial, the computer has a well-documented inability to plant forests and use tree-farms - most likely related to thinking forests only produce 1 nut, 2 min.

Would you change your strategies if forests didn't provide energy before tree farms? Maybe this tweak would make the AI substantially more competitve... It would certainly favor conquest factions over techies and builders.

Related question: if forests were set to 1 nut, 2 mins in alpha.txt, what effect would tree farms have? Would tree farm-forests still be 2,2,2 or just 2,2,1?

Additional notes about energy-less 2,1,0 forests:

Terrain    Base  Mine-Rd  Forest  Farm-SE  Best FoP
Arid  Flat  0,0   0,1,0   1,2,0   1,0,1     3: For
Arid  Roll  0,1   0,2,0   1,2,0   1,1,1     3: For, FSE
Arid  Rock  0,1   0,3,0   *       *         3: any
Moist Flat  1,0   0,1,0   1,2,0   2,0,1     3: For, FSE
Moist Roll  1,1   0,2,0   1,2,0   2,1,1     4: FSE
Moist Rock  1,1   0,3,0   *       *         4: FSE
Rainy Flat  2,0   1,1,0   1,2,0   3,0,1     4: FSE**
Rainy Roll  2,1   1,2,0   1,2,0   3,1,1     5: FSE**
Rainy Rock  2,1   1,3,0   *       *         5: FSE**

*Must be leveled
** Capped at 1,2,0;  2,0,1; or 2,1,1  under restrictions
All terrain at 1-1000m altitude

Several things emerge:
1. Mines are competive again. Rocky mines always produce as many FoP as forests. The trade-off of nut-min is likely to be resolved in favor of mins in the early game, especially if there are nut bonuses or rainy tiles nearby.
2. Farm-Solar beats or ties forests in almost all circumstances.
3. Only one terrain type presents a sure bet for forests: low-altitiude arid flat.
4. Will people use forests at all if there is no energy in them? Only after tree farms, where 2,2,2 becomes very attractive again.
5. The minor advantages of forests are quickly lost at any higher altitude where solar out-produces.
6. Sea and coastal bases are very attractive to tech-oriented players because of the energy they can supply.
7. This game would be a LOT slower - less money, less tech. Efficiency and upkeep costs would be far more important.

Wheathin

[Yxklyx]

Right now Forests are like a no-brainer - removing the energy output would make them more interesting. Do you go for minerals OR energy?

On the other hand, the AI doesn't seem to like building solar collectors anyway. I just captured Lal's headquarters with Pop 7 and there were plenty of rolling rainy squares that had no solar collectors!

[Fitz]

A few edits:
1: Included Farm/Mine and SE only column.
2: Mines on Rocky reduce the nutrients to 0 and cannot build farm, but a road adds one mineral.
3: Mine on non-rocky subtracts 1 nut to a minimum of 1 (unless arid) without the presence of a farm. With the presence of a farm, this balances for terrain normal. I assumed zero nuts on arid, but it could be 1.
4: SE is altitude under 1000. Each * after represents one additional point of altitude, and therefore an additional point of energy above the base 1.

You may want to rethink your assertions based on this corrected table.

Terrain		Base	Farm-Mine	Mine-Rd	Forest	Farm-SE	SE	Best FoP
Arid  Flat	0,0	0,1,0		0,1,0	1,2,0	1,0,1-4	0,0,1-4	3: For (4+: FSE**+)
Arid  Roll	0,1	0,2,0		0,2,0	1,2,0	1,1,1-4	0,1,1-4	3: For, FSE (4+: FSE*+)
Arid  Rock	0,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, FSE** (5: FSE***)
Moist Flat	1,0	1,1,0		1,1,0	1,2,0	2,0,1-4	1,0,1-4	3: For, FSE (4+: FSE*+)
Moist Roll	1,1	1,2,0		1,2,0	1,2,0	2,1,1-4	1,1,1-4	4+: FSE+
Moist Rock	1,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, FSE** (5: FSE***)
Rainy Flat	2,0	2,1,0		1,1,0	1,2,0	3,0,1-4	2,0,1-4	4+: FSE+
Rainy Roll	2,1	2,2,0		1,2,0	1,2,0	3,1,1-4	2,1,1-4	5+: FSE+
Rainy Rock	2,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, FSE** (5: FSE***)

P.S. - can someone test the actually output of Farm/Mine on Arid-Flat and Arid-Rolling for me?

[wheathin]

Thanks for the corrections on the Mines Fitz - that's what I get for posting at work.

Your results show the same thing as mine though:
Forests are a dominant strategy only on arid flat/roll territory at lower altitudes. Forests are an option on moist flat, and moist-rolling if mins are scarce, but only at low altitude.

In short, eliminating the forest energy looks to make terraforming decisions SUBSTANTIALLY different. Players will have to find a new source of energy to replace the forests. That means more solar, which means they can plant more farms (might as well put something with the farms). But it also means that players will get fewer mins, and so will have to build more mines. Prior to TreeFarms, lumberjacking will NOT be a successful strategy.

[Fitz]

Well, lets see what it would look like the way things are (sorry about the width of these posts). Also corrected rocky to be Solar only.

Terrain		Base	Farm-Mine	Mine-Rd	Forest	Farm-S	Solar	Best FoP
Arid  Flat	0,0	0,1,0		0,1,0	1,2,1	1,0,1-4	0,0,1-4	4: For, FS** (5: FS***)
Arid  Roll	0,1	0,2,0		0,2,0	1,2,1	1,1,1-4	0,1,1-4	4: For, FS* (5+: FS**+)
Arid  Rock	0,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Moist Flat	1,0	1,1,0		1,1,0	1,2,1	2,0,1-4	1,0,1-4	4: For, FS* (5+: FS**+)
Moist Roll	1,1	1,2,0		1,2,0	1,2,1	2,1,1-4	1,1,1-4	4: For, FS (5+: FS*+)
Moist Rock	1,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Rainy Flat	2,0	2,1,0		1,1,0	1,2,1	3,0,1-4	2,0,1-4	4: For, FS (5+: FS*+)
Rainy Roll	2,1	2,2,0		1,2,0	1,2,1	3,1,1-4	2,1,1-4	5+: FS+
Rainy Rock	2,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)

With Tree farms:

Terrain		Base	Farm-Mine	Mine-Rd	Forest	Farm-S	Solar	Best FoP
Arid  Flat	0,0	0,1,0		0,1,0	2,2,1	1,0,1-4	0,0,1-4	5: For, FS***
Arid  Roll	0,1	0,2,0		0,2,0	2,2,1	1,1,1-4	0,1,1-4	5: For, FS** (6: FS***)
Arid  Rock	0,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Moist Flat	1,0	1,1,0		1,1,0	2,2,1	2,0,1-4	1,0,1-4	5: For, FS** (6: FS***)
Moist Roll	1,1	1,2,0		1,2,0	2,2,1	2,1,1-4	1,1,1-4	5: For, FS* (6+: FS**+)
Moist Rock	1,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Rainy Flat	2,0	2,1,0		1,1,0	2,2,1	3,0,1-4	2,0,1-4	5: For, FS* (6+: FS**+)
Rainy Roll	2,1	2,2,0		1,2,0	2,2,1	3,1,1-4	2,1,1-4	5: For, FS (6+: FS*+)
Rainy Rock	2,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)

With a Hybrid forest:

Terrain		Base	Farm-Mine	Mine-Rd	Forest	Farm-S	Solar	Best FoP
Arid  Flat	0,0	0,1,0		0,1,0	3,2,2	1,0,1-4	0,0,1-4	7: For
Arid  Roll	0,1	0,2,0		0,2,0	3,2,2	1,1,1-4	0,1,1-4	7: For
Arid  Rock	0,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Moist Flat	1,0	1,1,0		1,1,0	3,2,2	2,0,1-4	1,0,1-4	7: For
Moist Roll	1,1	1,2,0		1,2,0	3,2,2	2,1,1-4	1,1,1-4	7: For, FS***
Moist Rock	1,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)
Rainy Flat	2,0	2,1,0		1,1,0	3,2,2	3,0,1-4	2,0,1-4	7: For, FS***
Rainy Roll	2,1	2,2,0		1,2,0	3,2,2	3,1,1-4	2,1,1-4	7: For, FS** (8: FS***)
Rainy Rock	2,1	NA		0,4,0	NA	NA	0,1,1-4	4: MR, S** (5: S***)

Which is why I have contended that you should forest every thing except 3000+ altitude Rainy/Rolling (Farm/Solar), and any rocky (Mines) before Soil Enrichers.

You can add one to all FSE with the advent of soil enrichers, and I generally want the nuts more than the mins (if there is at least one min), so my personal practice (usually from MY2100) is as follows:
Borehole or mine/road all rocky squares (need some minerals somewhere).
Farm/Solar (later Soil Enricher) the following: Moist/Rolling (altitude 2000+); Rainy/Rolling (altitude 1000+).
Condensor/Farm (later soil enricher) all nutrient specials, then crawl them.
Forest everything else.

One point less energy would make me do the following:
Borehole or mine/road all rocky squares (need some minerals somewhere).
Farm/Solar (later Soil Enricher) the following: Arid/Rolling (altitude 2000+), Moist/Rolling (altitude 1000+); Rainy/Rolling (all altitudes).
Condensor/Farm (later soil enricher) all nutrient specials, then crawl them.
Forest everything else.