Disable P-busters & pop-booming?

[Flubber]

aerocomplexes and AA complement each other and allow a reasonable chance of defending a base until Wav and/or Blink (assuming you are not using nervegas) .

My math could be wrong but I believe my 3AA became a 12 defender due to AA and the AC. A nearby sensor added 25% so thats 15 and I am trying to remember if there was a 25% base benefit as well that brought it to 18.75 ( morale added more but that it is equally available to both attackers and defenders). In any event you can see that a chopper without Wav or Blink to get past one of thoes 100% would be hard pressed to do much damage unless you willing to sacrifice a few or are able to get some artillery working to weaken the defenders.

I had a MP game where I did experience the odd sensation of seeing my elite attack 12 chopper facing daunting odds while on the attack. I decided to send it on a suicide run through the opponents crawlers rather than crashing against the powerfully defended base

But the chopper was still very powerful and remained the most powerful unit in the game--Against a fully developed opponent, almost ANYTHING that is left in the open is subject to being shot down since any unit that you can name has SOME weak spots. Thats why I like the chopper's ability to strike repeatedly-- like needles, they are very poor on defense so really all you can try to do is hit your opponent so hard that he has nothing available for the counterattack

[Ned]

TKG, Wealth/GA leads to + 2 econ. As well, +1 industry. This is easily the most productive SE setting available until Eudaimonia. It permits one to wage aggressive war by staying in out of FM. FM's negative police is a killer on aggresive war. With Panned, it permits several factions that have negative growth attributes to POP boom. With Green, it permits pod popping and worm or Ilse capture.

It's big downside is negative morale. However, this negative seems to have no effect on native life hatched in a base with a Brood Pit. With enough +1 life cycle enhancers, your Locusts, Sealurks, etc., are born Demon. Add the Nural Amplifier and later the Dream Twister, and you have a very formidable Great Green War Machine.

The best defense against an attack by such natives are -rt, AA units and an aerospace complex. Elite is nice as well. However, if the enemy uses -t, AA scouts, you then bring in your WAVE copters, which, though not elite, at least keeps the defense honest.

Ned

[yavoon]

ned, u might wna tone down the theorystorm ur whirling up. actually making native life in ne mass is almost always totally inefficient, unless ur opponent simply doesn't see it coming. so its silly to even think about it. and relying on the dream twister like its a project you can get during ne important part of the game is kinda funny too.

[Ned]

Yavoon, Try it sometime. It's fun.

BTW, I use Wealth+GA any chance I can. It is a great "SE" setting. This is why the HGP is critcally important. Helps to keep all bases in GA. Otherwise, bases with odd size numbers cannot achieve GA.

Ned

[Flubber]

Ned

I have fun with native life as well but the problem is that they are oh so susceptible to artillery-- all the enhancements and modifiers don't help at all if they are 90% damaged before they even start fighting

I used to love IODs on the ocean until someone pointed out how very susceptible they are to bombardment.

I could see the green strat working better if you had some fungal missiles and could disperse your force and move in quickly without taking much arty fire --hmmmm

[yavoon]

if ur opponent saw it u'd still die to trance scout patrols. I forget how much native life costs, but it aint cheap. and ur opponent can build gun weapon platforms for a fraction of the cost and be about even in firepower. and he has access to trance/empath while native life units don't.

if u attack really late, empath gun or wutever weapon u can get for free choppers and u might as well not show up.

tis just inefficient

and yes wealth+GA isnice when you can do it. I usually have too many bases to be golden ageing my empire. since psych counts before all the other modifiers, my psych is usually pretty wasted on double drones and the like.

[Flubber]

I always thought the best use of native life is in a mixed force (as implied by Ned). If a defender tried to get away with basic cheap trance scouts, they can be killed by higher attackers. As soon as the defender starts making more expensive defenders . . . well the native life is just as able to kill those as always and they are destroying the results of more minerals now.


As for the cost of native life, I usually employ natives when I am Dee or Cha (wealth unavailable so not relevant to the Wealth GA strat) and can use free natives-- If they die, it is not a big deal since every time you lose a worm, you increase your chance of capturing the next one. 5-6 are normal and sometimes you have as many as 10 captured to go with any you build.

and native life will usually beat a trance scout due - The 3:2 odds are equalized by trance but skewed to the Green attacker based on Planet rating. Worms are also likely to have a morale advantage (unless the opponent is running fundy or power and just getting an opponent to run those settings for a while can lead to productive advantages)but you cannot count on that

[yavoon]

oh yah, capturing native life is fine. I luv doin that. its producing it thats not smart.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by yavoon
oh yah, capturing native life is fine. I luv doin that. its producing it thats not smart.

In general I agree that conventional weapons have numerous advantages. However strictly on a cost basis if your base produces a worm in one turn, then it is just as cost effective as anything else. Ned runs his mineral counts pretty high IIRC. I only build worms when I am desperately behind in military tech and being hassled by enemy aircraft or the like. Worms ca keep at least the AI off your butt while you catch up on tech.

[Ned]

Actually the Great Green War Machine strategy requires directed research and a concentration on the "green" techs until one gets Centauri Genetics. This gives one the Pholus Mutagen and both Brood Pits and Locusts. The Pholus will add one lifecycle to native life. So will the Brood Pits. Brood Pits also lower native life costs by 25%. Finally, the Locusts are the weapon of choice in any Green offensive.

The research path to Centauri Genetics is relatively short. Many times, one can get there before other factions get Advanced Military Algorithms or Doctrine Air Power which can really put a crimp on the Green assault with AAA and airbases.

Even with an enemy with these defenses, if you also have the Nural Amplifier, Locusts are virtually invulnerable except to multiple attacks. They can wander freely in enemy territory, killing formers and crawlers, and ripping up terraforming. A real "Sherman's March to the Sea."

As to Wealth + GA, keep your efficiency high and the superdrones should not be much of a problem. However, if it is, it seems to me that you might rethink your strategy on numbers of bases. Beyond a certain number, each additional base is a real net liability for multiple reasons: b-drones and losses from inefficiency among them. In general, I try to keep the number of bases just below the second b-warning.

Ned

[Flubber]

I have used natives but have never focused on them quite this much. Interesting ideas.

The only things I will quibble with are

1. the idea that Locusts are nearly invulnerable-- If the opponent has SAM and artillery they can bombard your locust-- and damage it 50-90%. The whole use of artillery against native life changed my ideas as to their invulverability--

2. the shortness of the tech path to centauri psi-- My tech tree shows adv Mil algorithms as a prereq for retro eng which is a prereq for Centauri genetics-- I don't know if I can accept an assumption that your opponents will not have a tech two steps down the tree from your target tech

[yavoon]

we definitely don't have the same playstyle ned. under the second b warning on standard maps is 11 bases. + efficiency helps, but not a ton, and I don't have the formula in front of me. on standard maps I easily eclipse 30 bases. I just don't see how staying so incredibly small is gna work. golden ageing is a nice trick, and certainly w/ wealth its attractive, but I'd have 3x your bases mate. that'd have to be one impressive golden age.

I realize you can have some fun with green war machines, and they are cool. its just not efficient trance is a HUGE damper on green war machines. just look at this, trance+sensor+base, and ur mindworm is ALWAYS going to be fighting uphill against a 10 mineral trance scout. also realize that the neural amp, is over at neural grafting, not exactly on ur way to genetics if memory serves. AND it is on the way to clean units, which ur opponent will want very rapidly. so there's a large chance he gets the amplifier and not you. empath choppers are just your doom. its over by then. ne green whoopass ffrom then on will have to be by surprise.

tho to be fair, I do use locusts, I use them to capture bases after choppers annihilate the defense. they're great, they fly, never have to come home, and can occupy a base. beautiful. I use mind worms only if they're captured 99.5% of the time, they other .5% is if I don't have clean units, need an army, and can't afford the support cost, since mindworms are free if u keep em in fungus. but thats pretty damn rare.

I also like isle of the deep, but unfortunately I play on maps with lotsa land(helpin the computer), so I don't get to use too many of em.