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  • Crawerless strategy. Long.

    Bewarned this post is very long, technical and contains a bit of maths. I'll post a shorter summary below.

    * * * Introduction - safe to read

    The crawlerless strategy is inferior in every way to a strategy involving crawlers, it exists as a challenge, and to hopefully make the game more enjoyable by reducing micromanagment.

    For the terminally stupid, crawlerless strategy involves building no crawlers... there are less extreme variants like 'only use crawlers to rush SP's', or 'Only one crawler per base'.

    The lack of crawlers hurts your game at two main points, the first is 'boot straping your industry with crawlers', using crawlers on forests to get to ~16 minerals per base, which allows very rapid construction of infrastructure and SP's.

    The second is utilisation of terraforming, mainly Mines and Condensors which are somewhat less valuable when they have to be worked.


    There are two terraforms which dont get an extreme benefit from being crawled, these are post-tree farm forests and boreholes.

    * * * Getting into the heavy stuff

    In analysis I will be using Factor Of Production, basically each Nutrient, Mineral or Energy is one FOP, in the early game minerals are more valuable than Energy, but later as you get energy enhancing facilities energy becomes more valuable than minerals.

    Usuable FOP are Minerals and Energy, nutrients produce no real resource in themselves, but potentially allow harvesting of usable FOP. Net resources mean the resources after 2 nuts have been deducted for each worker.

    Case study one:
    Hybrid forests & +2 Econ.
    forest = 3-2-3
    Usuable FOP = 5
    crawled:
    Useable FOP = 3 (5 with engineers)
    In this case, unless ineffeciency is high, you gain no benefit from crawling forests.. assuming you have population enough to work every tile.

    Case study two:
    Borehole & +2 Econ
    6-0-7
    Worked produces 13 FOP
    Crawled produces 9 - 12 FOP
    It is hard to get a net benefit from crawling boreholes - altough it can be worthwhile with a SSC and the amplification to energy...

    * * * Cover your eyes and run away screaming

    Terraforming Strategies.
    Three obvious strategies come to mind, forest'n'forget, forest'n'forget + boreholes, Condensors + boreholes.

    You can have highly productive bases once Hybrid forests arrive by working forests, boreholes, and any excess pop going to specialists. These bases compare well with a crawlered base, but do require the investment of a Hybrid forest... which is expensive, but well worth it.[list=1][*] 3 forests, hybrid forest, +2econ.
    Each tile produces net resources of 1-2-3
    the 3 tiles produce 3-6-9, and 1.5 specialists for another 4.5 - 7.5 resources.
    Total FOP = 0-6-13.5 = 19.5 (Libarian/Techie/Thinker)
    Total FOP = 0-6-16.5 = 22.5 (Engineeers)
    Population = 4.5
    [*] 2 Forests, 1 Borehole, Hybrid Forest, +2econ
    The excess 1 nut from each forest feeds the borehole worker.
    Total FOP = 0 - 10 - 13 = 23
    Population = 3
    Once engineers arrive you are barely better off working boreholes - may as well just go all forest and assign engineers.
    [*] 2 Condensors (1flat, 1rolling), 1 Borehole, +2 econ.
    Two Condensors produces net average resourcces 4-1-2, 2 nuts used on borehole, 2 left for specialist.
    Total FOP = 0-7-12 = 19
    Total FOP = 0-7-14 = 21 (Engineers)
    Population = 4
    Slightly less FOP than forests, but you dont need the expensive TF or HF to utilise. But requires a LOT more terraforming time. Quite a balanced tradeoff really.
    [*] 2 Condensors, 2 soil enrichers, 1 borehole, +2econ.
    Two condensors produce net average resources 8-1-2, 2 nuts used on borehole, 6 leftover for 3 specialists.
    Total FOP = 0-7-18 = 25
    Total FOP = 0-7-24 = 31 (Engineers)
    Population = 6
    This terraforming really blows forests out the water, so to speak.
    [*] 3 Condensors (2 rolling, 1 flat), +2 econ
    3 Condensors produce net average resource 6-2-3, nuts support 3 specialists.
    Total FOP = 0-2-11 = 13
    Total FOP = 0-2-17 = 19 (Engineers)
    Population = 6
    This is really quite poor compared to having a borehole... but it improves if you throw up some orbitals. The main downside is a low mineral output, so you wouldn't want all your terraforming like this.
    [*] 3 Condensors (2 rolling, 1 flat), soil enrichers, +2 econ
    3 Condensors produce net average resource 12-2-3, nuts support 6 specialists.
    Total FOP = 0-2-21 = 23
    Total FOP = 0-2-33 = 32 (Engineers)
    Population = 9
    Now were smoking, All condensors+enrichers produces the absolute most resources. And when you add in orbitals, weeeee.[/list=1]

    If not +2econ : This has the effect of reducing every FOP rating by 3. In general specialists are more usfull if you dont have +2 Econ.

    The significane of Population: Population is important when it comes to work out gain from orbitals. Total resources from orbitals, once all things have been accounted for:

    mins, energy = Pop*2
    # Specialists = Pop
    Total FOP from orbitals, specialists
    7*pop (Libies, Techies, Thinkies)
    9*pop (Engineers)
    10*pop (Tranies)

    So population is really quite valuable when it comes to orbitals. Note those values are *maximum*, in reality you will get less.

    Two important cases, Hybrid forest, condensors, All orbitals, Engineers.

    3 forest:
    FOP = 22.5 + 18 + 22.5 = 63

    3 condensors+enrichers:
    FOP = 32 + 36 + 45 = 113

    We are talking approximately twice the resoures from a terraforming heavy scheme, however bear in mind that the actual difference will be a bit smaller, the smaller the base the less benefit from orbitals (this is because only 'whole' specialists benefit from an orbital, while in my calculations I have 'half specialists' and the like... dont ask me to explain further, because I just might )

    edit: Added formating, added explainations about +2econ, expanded on population...

  • #2
    Summary

    What terraforming strategy you use will often depend on the flow of the game. (how early orbitals arrive...)

    Pre-Orbitals.
    In a large well developed base with a hybrid forest you may as well stick with 100% forest, you get slightly more resources from other terraforming schemes, but the terraforming cost doesn't really justify it.

    However a new base which doesn't have a treefarm will be a lot more productive working a combination of Condensors and Boreholes. If you have plenty of formers then this is a good option to get a new base productive quickly. OTOH, if you have cash to burn then throw up a TF and HF and the base will grow just fine on forest. A nice comprimise is one condensor, one borehole per base, the rest forest.

    Post-Orbitals:
    Now condensors start to look really good, especially if you have enrichers too. Once you have all three orbitals and enrichers you can get almost twice the resources out of Condensors than forests. However you'll be spending a lot of time assigning specialists, which may or may not be your idea of fun.


    Other coping strategies:
    Because you dont have minerals being crawled from mines the mineral enhancing facilities become much more attractive, in order to prevent ecodamage you should build & scrap CP's in advance of getting the tech for the facilities. This is a good task for bases with nothing much to build.

    Minerals have one primary advantage over energy, PlanetBusters are very expensive to buy per mineral, having a strong mineral base really helps your planetbuster construction program. ( )

    In the mid game 30 minerals per base is a good target to shoot for, because it allows one turn construction of "Trained" 1-1- >2 shell units, or 8-1-X*2 units. Both these units are great for upgrading, and plain chaos aircraft make great 'throwaways'

    Comment


    • #3
      Great analysis !

      I've been clean 3 days, 2 hours, and...no, just kidding . To make it more challenging, though, I haven't been using crawlers, and I've been going all forests (as in, no boreholes/condesors!).

      Funny because I just posted a long (somewhat) mathematical analysis on the BENEFITS of using crawlers in the other thread. I didn't go into post-orbitals, though - most of the time you've won the game by then.

      Z

      Comment


      • #4
        I always wondered how on Chiron could you tough dogs have Transcendance in the 23rd Mission Century - But now I know why.
        I have never used crawlers as extensively as you. Just to balance situations where the number of produced nuts is odd, or likewise, but never had I used them in such epic proportions! My terraforming was basically just forest, forest and sometimes in very moist squares farm/solar. I just finished the OCC that turned a 2CC, and that was the first time I actually used crawlers to boost my mineral output or any output.
        Cake and grief counseling will be available at the conclusion of the test. Thank you for helping us help you help us all!

        Comment


        • #5
          I play lots of games without crawlers, though the reason is less than spectacular. basically if the game gets too big, my computer can't handle the spriteload of that many crawlers and formers. Not to be all anti climatic cuz I don't posess a 10 page essay on crawlerless strategies.

          but I like to treefarm pop boom a lot sooner when I don't have crawlers.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by yavoon
            I play lots of games without crawlers, though the reason is less than spectacular. basically if the game gets too big, my computer can't handle the spriteload of that many crawlers and formers.
            That's half the reason I went crawlerless
            It's also half the reason I play SMAC, which runs faster than SMAX, especially with low-res caviar(sp?) installed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Blake

              That's half the reason I went crawlerless
              It's also half the reason I play SMAC, which runs faster than SMAX, especially with low-res caviar(sp?) installed.
              I bought a bigger computor to paly smac-x.
              Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
              Japher: "crap, did I just post in this thread?"
              "Bloody hell, Lefty.....number one in my list of persons I have no intention of annoying, ever." Bugs ****ing Bunny
              From a 6th grader who readily adpated to internet culture: "Pay attention now, because your opinions suck"

              Comment


              • #8
                Blake, excellent analysis. I'd distantly waggled a finger at the comparison between worked condenser-enrichers and forest, but never did the calculations, many thanks! Now if only we could get some Hybrid Forests in our NCC game...

                I noticed a couple things which may / may not be typos, but the confused me:
                Case study one:
                Hybrid forests & +2 Econ.
                forest = 3-2-3
                Usuable FOP = 5
                Isn't that Usuable FOP = 8?
                Case study two:
                Borehole & +2 Econ
                6-0-7
                Worked produces 13 FOP
                Crawled produces 9 - 12 FOP
                Should be 0-6-7 but anyways... I'm wondering about your Crawled totals? I think you're summarizing added FOP's from Specialists in a few areas without the calculations posted and it's a wee tad confusing.

                -S-
                Visit Aldebaran:Aldebaranweb

                Comment


                • #9
                  I didn't really care to explain much with the crawler/crawlerless comparisons. Crawlers are going to be superier, period.
                  Putting in too many calculations would probably just reduce readability...

                  Another thing of interest is the 'value' of labs, EC's, minerals, at different points in the game. I'm using the rushbuy comparison of 2EC's = 1 mineral, or IOW, the raw producivity. Which is a siplification, but not a bad one.


                  Start of game. 'Early game'
                  It is safe to say that 1min = 2EC = 2Labs.
                  Minerals = 2
                  Credits = 1
                  Labs = 1
                  That is, minerals are twice as valuable as energy.

                  Case study two:'End of early game'
                  Energy bank + Tree Farm + Netnode + Research Hospital
                  Now EC's are multiplied by 2, and Labs by 2.
                  Minerals = 2
                  Credits = 2
                  Labs = 2

                  Case study three: 'Entered the Mid game'
                  EBank + TF + HF + NetNode+ RH + Fusion Lab
                  Now EC's are multiplied by 3 and labs by 2.5
                  Minerals = 2
                  Credits = 3
                  Labs = 2.5
                  This has the rather suprising conclusion that a solar panel providing 4 energy is more productive than a mine. Prehaps echlons have their place....

                  Comparing the good ol' mine with specialists
                  Mine = 8 (11 if +2econ)
                  Libarian = 7.5
                  Fusion Engineer = 14
                  Or, iow. GET RID OF THOSE MINES! Your much better of with an engineer than working a mine - with the exception of building units/SP's.

                  Case study four: ' Midgame'
                  EBank+TF + NetNode+RH+FusionLab+Genejack
                  Minerals = 3
                  Credits = 3
                  Labs = 2.5
                  Incidentely, the Engineer is still beating the mine.

                  Case study five: 'Mid - late game'
                  EB+TF+HF+NN+RH+FL+Nanohospital + GJack + Robotic Assembly
                  Minerals = 4
                  Credits = 3
                  Labs = 3
                  Getting halfway into the late game minerals are making a comeback. The mine overtakes the Engineer in sheer construction power.

                  Case study six: 'Late game'
                  EB+TF+HF+NN+RH+NH+FL+GJ+RA+Quantum Lab+Quantum Converter+Nanoreplicator, iow, all everything!
                  Minerals = 6
                  Credits = 3.5
                  Labs = 3.5

                  Condensor and it's 5 Transcends = 105
                  Borehole = 57

                  This gives a definite guide to what you should be focusing on, in the early games minerals are everything. In the midgame energy becomes more valuable than energy. Later on minerals again overtake energy, but you need to deal with the ED... and in any case the sheer number of transcends supported by a condensor blows anything else out the water... netherless minerals can provide a usefull boost to your productivity.

                  Note these values give an excellent indication of the economics of building Orbitals, for example a Powersat gives +1 energy per base, so if you have 10 well developed bases, says +2.5 EC per base, or +25 EC, it costs 220 to rushbuy, iow, pays for itself in less than 10 turns.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Blake:
                    Assigning specialists is my idea of fun!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Blake,

                      It is good to put a lot of the theoretical stuff together like this rather than spaced out throughout a game thread with lots of unrelated business in between. I feel like I've got a lot to say on this subject, but so far I have started off twice and decided that the content content was just too low, so I'm going to try bullet points with little or no explanation/justification.

                      Early game:
                      - bases or forests on specials and/or rivers (preferably both but without other good values like high wet rolling)
                      - forest or forest/river preferably on the lowest/driest flat tiles
                      - enough farm/solar on rolling to feed/grow pop (as wet and high and riverine as possible); these are probably necessary unless your base is on a nut special.

                      Later Early game (after restrictions):
                      - bases or forests (preferably with at least TF) on low, flat, arid and/or where a special is mismatched with terrain (like low energy special or arid flat min special)
                      - kelp/solar on continental shelf (including min specials)
                      - farm/solar/mines on the most suitable tiles available as necessary for pop/growth

                      Late-Early/Mid game (after WP or Ecol Eng):
                      - bases on least valuable terrain
                      - boreholes on rocky or energy or non-rocky-min special or any poor terrain
                      - condensors on nut special and/or undistinguished rolling (flat in a crawler game )
                      - mine/road on rocky min specials
                      - farm-kelp/solar on continental shelf and on very good land tiles (highest, wettest rolling tiles)
                      - forest (preferably TF & HF) on middling terrrain

                      A particularly strategic tile might get a forest/sensor irrespective of other considerations.

                      Similarly, a base location may reflect strategic factors or be suggested by the location of neighboring base sites.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And here is a SMAC 'savegame' as a form of terraformers sandbox.
                        Morgan : A heap of Sky Labs
                        Dee, Yang: Nothing special...

                        There are heaps of bases showing different possible styles of base placment, and even a section on ICS.

                        Of interest: At the top is a bunch of hive and morgan bases showing ICS strategies. Yum.

                        At the bottom is an island with a single Gaian base showing my base placment strategy, which allows you to drill boreholes at maximum density. This is much easier with base grid on.

                        In the middle is a big continent showing an 'ideal' forest+borehole terraforming and base placment...

                        =ICS=
                        Did you know that using just 4 tiles you can have a size 14 base? And all this requires is the WP and Orbital Spaceflight.

                        The base square produces 2-1-1.
                        3 condensors produce 12-0-0
                        14-0-0
                        14 population points produce 14 nuts from orbitals.
                        14+14=28
                        Or, using the same 4 tiles you can have 2 Condensor+Enrichers and one borehole, supporting a Size14 base with 11 specialists. Such efficent use of terrain is almost enough to convert one to ICS.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          maybe I missed it, cuz I didn't read everything, but in all this # crunching and "fop" madness. yall forgot a lot of the less quantifiable variables. like if u crawl food for a specialist base, then get the crawlers killed, thats a serious liability. even if the food is in your base radius ur probably gna riot if u use ne workers to go get it. and if u use all the workers, hell u might lose the base.

                          other stuff I saw as weird, would u really farm/condenser every last square? seems like a huge waste of former management. are ur formers that bored that they can sit around 12(8) turns on every square to get a crawler one more food? that and an immense amount of condensers seems like eco damage waiting to happen and then it nukes a condenser/farm which is another 22 turns of former fun. I don't do the sell and rebuild thing for the preserves so maybe if u just use that its no big deal.

                          even on the transcend comment, who needs more labs that late in the game? sure transcends nominally give u massive "factors of production" but ur not rioting, hell if ur a builder u prolly started golden aging a while ago, so wut did the +2 pscyh really do for u? and unless a few extra transcends move u from a tech a turn to 2/turn, but if ur barreling at that pace its prolly just gna be who pulls the fastest finger on transcend, and u need a buncha money to upgrade crawlers(or should that be illegal, just buy it, and normal crawler it) in which case u prolly want engineers instead.

                          I prolly forgot something, but who cares.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            yavoon, Blake more or less announced that this was an obsessive/compulsive thread, so excessive detail is part of that deal when you read the thread.

                            I don't think anyone said you had to have all Farm/Condensor/Enricher, you might want to have a bunch of boreholes too.

                            If you build a TF and HF, there is no eco damage from terraforming (esp. the condensors and boreholes) at that base, only from the mineral production.

                            As for the mineral production, I think you can get a pretty large amount of min production just by building 1 of each of the good facilities at each base; you don't really need to tear them down and build them again unless you're aiming for something really extreme. For example, if you had 20 bases with 4 goodfacs each, you would have nearly 100 clean mins per base right there (base of 16 clean + (4 * 20) = 96); that would be 16 boreholes worth of mins (or 8 doubled by production enhancement facilities)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's worth noting that I do NOT delay treefarms in order to force a pop, I just go right ahead and build them. Without crawlers it is rather hard to force a pop (you really need a couple of boreholes, or a big base and prefferably a mineral bonus...).
                              Playing crawlerless you really need the extra nuts provided by a treefarm, ASAP. The bonus economy is always good too.

                              I usually manage to force a pop about half way through my Tree Farm construction project, and delay HF's until I do manage to force the pop. This means I'll get about 2/3rds of the possibly clean mineral benefit from my TF's/HF's. (Usually enough to bring it up to 30-40, which is plenty enough to go crazy with boreholes).

                              I do use the CPreserve scraping trick, because there is no advantage to keeping them. Indeed they cost 2 credits per turn. May as well sell the things for 80 credits (I usually construct them in waves, and use "scrap CP at every base....").

                              I also go crazy with genejacks and robotic assembly plants, and once I've thrown a dozen Mining Orbitals up mineral production can skyrocket. I consider it worth the effort of scraping dozens of CP's, lets just say I have a thing for planetbusters

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