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Help a Newbie Out... Managing your growing Empire

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  • #16
    (Note: The following is some sample calculations that may or may not be accurate. To the best of my knowledge, the following is adequate proof that crawlers rule. If there's something major I missed, please kindly point it out ! Also, I do not pretend to be an expert on this topic. This is just my reasoning, and I'd love to hear constructive comments)

    LOL, 4 different views within 15 minutes of each other, and within 45 minutes of the question !

    This place is jumping...

    Yes, in the mid/late game, an energy "focus" (as Vel calls it) is very important at your SSC (already defined) with (hopefully) Merchant Exchange, Supercollider, and Thoery of Everything. Even if you don't want to run Free Market, run Wealth and put Psych at 20-30%. With all your energy, this should be plenty to Golden Age at least your SSC, giving you the extra +1 energy (spending 20% of the energy on Psych to get a 25% increase in energy - from 4 to 5 for tidal harnesses, which I find much easier to manage than energy parks). This Golden Age makes it easy to pull off a population boom at the base as well, even if you're Yang/Morgan (although if you're Morgan, you might be running Free Market anyway, and then you don't need the Golden Age...if you go the other way and run Green, you can't pop-boom until Future Societies, period).

    Early on, however, a Nutrient/Mineral focus is extremely productive. If you can crawl a lot of condensors, you can easily pop-boom up to size 14 (16 with Ascetic Virtues). 14 only takes 28 food, and if you have just 9 of the workers on forests (assume 5 as Engineers/Librarians/Technitions - if you have psych at just 10-20%, you can probably get away without Doctors/Empaths). Pre-tree farm even, you'll only need to crawl 4 condensers (condensers aren't even held back by Nutrient Restrictions, ever!). Then, you'll have 20 Minerals, at least 12 Energy (say only 8, taking into account inefficiency - I don't know the exact way it works, besides it depends on distance from your Headquarters - but 33% inefficiency seems reasonable enough for Democracy/Planned), 1 or 2 of those going to Psych. Then, 6 go to Labs/Economy. Then, you've got 5 specialists - that's at least 15 more points, times any lab/energy enhancing facilities, and you can easily get to around 45 (I think) more from that, for a total of 51. That's not bad (considering how I "assumed" you don't have any rivers/bonus resources nearby), and you can place bases very close together, as only 14 of the 20 squares are used (including crawlers).

    This bonus is incredible once you get Engineers (I like to beeline to Fusion after getting Planetary Economics, and probe Synthetic Fossile Fuels/Air Power from Yang/Miriam), as instead of getting 45 from specialists, you get 25 raw, or at least 70 after adding facilities. Now that's getting nice .

    After tree farms/hybrid forests, everything's just wonderful. Get the Ascetic Virtues!! OK, now back to the analysis . If you want to go even more specialist, you can have 2 of those 5 crawlers (assuming you built at least *1* more!) crawl Condensers, and the rest crawl mines. Now, you have 7 out of your 16 (you did get the Ascetic Virtues, right?) workers on hybrid forests. You'll have exactly 32 nutrients this way, and you'll have 24 minerals (by now, you should have had your first pop (be sure to get it before building lots of tree farms!), so you should be able to produce quite a few more minerals) and 14 energy (do what you want with it - you probably don't need much in psych). That leaves 9 Specialists. Pre-Fusion, that's 27 raw, or about 81 with facilities. Post-Fusion, that's 45 raw, and a lot modified with facilities! I would estimate about 130 or so (and a lot more if you build Fusion Labs!!)...that's not bad at all! Now you're using even less of the squares, with much more output!

    Once you get Engineers, you might want to Golden Age for the +1 energy each square on Wealth. Make one of the specialists a worker (so you have 8 talents), and jack psych up as much as you want (100% isn't too much, as you're still getting about 50 labs and 50 economy each base from the Engineers). If you have Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, Hologram Theaters (or Virtual World + Network Nodes), and Research Hospitals, you should be Golden Aging at most (if not all) bases. Once they're all getting 3 Energy per forest instead of 2, you can lower psych a bit - see how low you can go while maintaining all 8 talents.

    Now consider no crawlers.

    Pre-tree farm, you have maybe a Rainy-Rolling Farm/Solar Collector for 3/1/2 and the rest forest. You can get to a grand total of (dum dee dah!) size 4 without any nutrient bonuses/monoliths if you work the rest forests. So, you have 8 nutrients, 7 minerals, and 7 energy, for a grand total of 10 or so labs and 10 or so economy. Much worse than the 25/25 you had going for you with crawlers, not to mention that you're getting 1/3 the minerals this way.

    Now consider that you have the same hybrid forest, except say that 12 out of the 16 are working. The rest as Engineers are getting you some 20 raw points of energy (50-60 modified). You're getting a few more minerals (26) and some spare food (+7). You're Golden Aging at 20% Psych (I'm being generous here ), so you're getting 36 raw energy. Minus some inefficiency (let's use the same 33% from ealier), that's 24 raw. 20% Psych brings it down to about 19. That's another 50-60 raw, for a little less than the crawler method.

    So you're saying that in the end it evens out? Well, for one thing, I've been harsh (I think) on my Crawler estimates and easy on my non-crawler estimates. And then there's TURN ADVANTAGE. The crawlers bases can get up to size 14 a good 10 years before Tree Farms. Plus 10 years to get Tree Farms and Hybrid Forests (generous) means that you're enjoying an extra 15 energy credits per turn and 15 labs per turn for 20 turns. Then there's the matter of having about 3 times as many minerals, making facilities and SP's easier to build, thus increasing your labs and energy even more. This turn advantage builds on itself - you get Hybrid Forests faster, can build them faster, get to Fusion faster, reap the benefits of Engineers faster....and so on and so on....

    Um...that was a long essay, I didn't mean to write that much...!

    EDIT: Hi knowhow2 - my "day came" with Zak on a tech stag/double blind game with 100+ crawlers - breakthroughs every 5 years at MY2200, all the latest (missed some early ones) SP's!

    Z

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    • #17
      Yes.. I think I see. I was thinking about this sort of thing in terms of Civilization (I've only really played Civ1) where you either have a worker or a talent. I wasn't really calculating in that the

      specialized jobs + supplier single resource = Greater Net Resource

      For example, if I have a tile that produces 4 Nuts and 2 Energy I would be better just putting a supply crawler on it to get the Nuts and use the worker I would have used on that tile to give myself a nice bonus to labs/economy/psych.

      I actually started messing around with this a little bit. This is probably a fairly obnoxious quesiton.. but is it possible to a tech advance every turn? No matter how much I boost my scientific output it seems to stagante at 2 turns/tech. Yeah, I know that's short, just curious if it can be done...

      Even in terms of those nice +4 Nut +3 Energy places in the sea, I could just send out a sea-crawler (does this exsist?) and crawl in the energy and then give myself double energy with a specialized worker or I could haul in the Nuts and give myself specialized energy use.

      Think I got it.. so then the best idea for building up my techs should be (builder style):

      Gene Splicing
      Enviormental Economics
      Whathever technololgy it is that lets you get more than +3/square
      Industrial Automation
      Fusion Power

      Not very good for military I guess...

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      • #18
        A good series of tech beelines for a crawler oriented builder would be:

        1) Industrial Automation (allows crawlers and wealth)
        2) Secrets of the Human Brain (allows trance)
        3) Restriction lifting techs (allows more than 2 production of Nuts, Mins and Energy respectively in a tile, and the last also gives you treefarms)
        4) Clean technology (can't remember the tech name, but clean reactors are great to create huge armies of formers to terraform yor continent, or even expand it by raising land)
        5) Fusion (you get the fusion reactor, which doubles the hit points of your units built or retrofitted with it and you also get the Engineer type specialist (produces 5 FOP) and the fusion lab which gives a base +50% labs and econ).

        Of course circumstances may force a deviation or two from these beelines, but you will find that these are all key techs in the early and mid game to unlock your production potential.
        He's got the Midas touch.
        But he touched it too much!
        Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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        • #19
          Clean Reactors come with Bio-Engineering (Pre-req's Gene Splicing and Neural Grafting, I think)

          And YES, there are sea crawlers, but you have to design them yourself! Just use a foil/cruiser chassis, and put on the Supply Transport as the weapon/equipment. Don't worry about putting clean reactors on supply units - they're clean anyway (I don't know why it lets you still use them)

          I also like to deviate for Centauti Empathy after getting Automation (GREAT tech even if you don't want to use crawlers!) for the Empath Guild, which is very helpful because you might just be able to trade for some useful techs that aren't on your beeline. Also, being Planetary Governer helps a lot early on, because in the early game you'll get almost no commerce (maybe +1 per base per pact) - the +1 from being Governer brings that to +1 per treaty and +2 per pact!

          Z

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CygnusZ
            I actually started messing around with this a little bit. This is probably a fairly obnoxious quesiton.. but is it possible to a tech advance every turn? No matter how much I boost my scientific output it seems to stagante at 2 turns/tech. Yeah, I know that's short, just curious if it can be done...
            Yes. It is even possible to get more than one tech a turn, which make the end game quite brief. There's no longer a need to slog it out with your 20-8-8 gravships when you can skip up to Transcendence in a dozen turns or so, build the voice of planet, fire up for the ascent, and call it a day.

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            • #21
              Yes a tech a turn is VERY possible and is most easily achieved by crawlering energy to a super science base or bases. Remember that it is almost always better to have your lesser bases build crawlers to be re-homed to a developed base than to have those bases try to build all that infrastructure themselves as well.
              You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Zakharov VII
                And YES, there are sea crawlers, but you have to design them yourself! Just use a foil/cruiser chassis, and put on the Supply Transport as the weapon/equipment. Don't worry about putting clean reactors on supply units - they're clean anyway (I don't know why it lets you still use them)
                Z
                I think the clean ability costs 2 for crawlers so it's great for upgrading crawlers for cashing in (SPs or prototypes), put not BEST armour but MOST expensive armour plus most expensive ability/abilities (depends on if you have NG tech or not), upgrade the default crawler and cash in (in comparison much more cost-effective)
                It's close to midnight and something evil's is lurking in the dark.

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                • #23
                  Sea crawlers can rake in terrific amounts of energy. Send sea formers to build tidal harnesses on special energy resource squares anywhere on the globe. With the right combination of SE choices and a Thermocline gizmo in the base, a sea crawler can harvest 8 energy per turn from a square like this. If the location of the energy resource is way out of everyone's path, the crawler can survive the whole game unmolested.

                  How to armor these and whether or not to upgrade them is debatable. I usually don't upgrade them once they're in place and harvesting. I'll let them sit until destroyed, and then replace them as necessary with newer versions that have better reactors and armor. Adding Trance and Deep Radar can be useful, too, depending upon the situation. The AI never thinks to destroy the tidal harness, so you don't have to go back and build that again.
                  "Minding Your Business Since 1991"

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