Important Secret Projects

[vitamin j]

I would like to add that I am a former forest fanatic myself. I have changed my game to be more specialist oriented, and it works much better for me. It's a little harder to set up, and relies heavily on crawlers, but can be incredibly productive, even before engineers. The WP lets you get those condesers kicking right away... So it's a "gotta have" for me, and keeps my vote, even if Vel says otherwise!

[Blake]

If you find yourself on a continent alongside Yang or Miriam then the last thing on your agenda will be the WP!

And should I find myself in the above situation I forget about building any SP's - you can build a lot of impact infantry for the cost of one SP, and as a bonus get the Vassal State SP, which gives permament commerce income, probe team training, additional votes in UN council and the odd tech. I'm trying to make my game harder here

With the WP - I only rarely build it when using a Free Market type faction, instead opting for the quick'n'easy forest'n'forget terraforming. I usually go through and drill a few boreholes once I have clean formers. I have no problem keeping up the terraforming because I dont use crawlers when running FM in singleplayer games. This is one of my self-imposed restrictictions, and makes the game whofully more enjoyable, if only because I dont have to worry about annoying AI's sniping my crawlers. (I've even played a crawlerless OCC )

I would say the WP is "essintial" for Yang, worth considering for Miriam and Domai and pretty blah for the rest. (note, I usually play as Yang)

[Jeem]

I certainly wouldn't say I'm a forest fanatic, just that terraforming is not perhaps as vital as it seems. I only plant forests because they are quick, easy and miles better than arid terrain. The effort required for complete terraforming is often too much, and formers just die too easily for me. I suppose what I'm saying is that in MP games, I'd target the formers of any player who built the WP more than I usually would. Green players love that sort of ****, given that we can hide worms in fungus just waiting on easy kills...

The WP is like the EG in that respect. Many here have said that the builder of the EG tends to make themselves a target, and in my view the builder of the WP makes themselves an easier target. It's a project that is brilliant when you are left to fully exploit it's use, but not so good when you find yourself in a bad situation. I'd rate it 3rd after the HGP and CN in the very early game, and not once have I missed not having it. At best it'll get you to size 7 cities a little bit faster than most, but by the time you get to Ind Auto your opponents will probably be close to Eco.Eng anyway. You also have the problem of it all being washed away in a sea level raise, which happens to be a personal favourite of mine. The potency of the WP is easily counteracted by it's weaknesses, but if you let the WP builder go about their business unmolested then yes, you'll have a hard time against them.

[Avenoct]

I suppose everyone thinks about things differently, but every time I read this thread (and its had about 3 incarnations in nearly the same way over just the last few months) I can't help but notice that some people assume a particular map and others try to speak to the fact that SP's largely vary in value in different types of games.

To my mind, being of the second camp, there just is no way to say what SP is the most valuable overall. For example, the Command Nexus. Thats a great SP overall, giving morale boosting at all bases. On a standard map with aggressive opponents or in MP, it's pretty attractive. On a huge map with a large tech advantage it's hardly worth building. Additionally, the faster a game progresses toward air-power (the faster the tech-rate), the faster it becomes antiquated.

-S.

[Mr. President]

I was actually looking for ideas on which projects people personally feel they need. For example, I can live without the Theory of Everything because I usually use Knowledge and Free Market (which isn't to say I don't get bummed if someone else gets it). If you play the One City Challenge most of the military projects wouldn't be very useful to you; but the Weather Paradigm, not important to my game, would be.

Many of the late-game projects I'm willing to pass on. Clinical Immortality, the Telepathic Matrix, the Universal Translator (for the free technology), and the Dream Twister are the only ones I'm really desperate to get. The Space Elevator is useful, but if you can get Applied Gravitonics you get the same effect. Surprisingly, a lot of more useful secret projects (for me anyway) come earlier in the game.

[vitamin j]

Well, Mr. President, personally I feel I need them all!
To Jeem, I would say that terraforming is maybe the most vital factor in the game! At least if players are of equal skill, the one with the most food/mins/energy will probably win. I believe the advanced terraforming options are the way to maximize your resources, whether circumstances permit you to crawl them or not. Even if formers and crawlers are taken out, you're hardly in a worse position than someone who's just working forests. But to get those improvements "on time" the WP is your project.
I gotta go do a search about specialist cities again...

[Ned]

Of the early techs, the HGP is the most important, in my view, as it allows early expansion and/or FM, easier or earlier pop booming through GA, and a reliable way to stay in the Wealth + GA cash cow from mid game on. There is no substitute. There are, however, ways to compensate for not having any of the other early techs.

From the midgame on, the most important tech is the HSA.

A close second is the Cloning Vats, not so much because of its pop booming effect, but because of its eliminating the negative effects of Power and Thought control.

If I play on a huge planet +, I also believe the Maritime Control Center is critical. It really helps in popping pods and bringing those artifacts home. It is also critical to naval superiority.

The Empath Guild is great, but infitration is a substitute.

Ned

[aaglo]

Because I like to play factions with restricted economy (HIVE comes to in mind) I usually want the kind of SP's that bring free facilities. Of those the main fac is Cyborg Factory. And because Hive does not make many bucks, I allways go for Self Aware Colony (for halved maintenance cost) and Nano Factory (for halved upgrade cost).
I don't think that nobody in this forum has mentioned SAC and NF to be important SP's. Well, somebody's have to defend these great SP's

Afterall, the important SP's are determined by your gameplay style and the faction you are playing with.

[vitamin j]

On a related note, is there any (easy) way to disable the SPs all together? Has anyone done this before? I think this would make for a more interesting game, especially in MP, by leveling (sp?) the playing field a little bit...

[Googlie]

You can do it thru the scenario editor (scenario special rules, check the box "No secret projects can be built")

Start a game, open scenario editor and select the special rules menu item (you will see the map when you open the scenario - so force yourself not to look for the AI locations. Even better would be to play 20 turns or so, then do it, 'cos by that time you will have revealed the tiles around your start position and bases anyway)

After you have checked that box (and you can do all sorts of other things too - make pods never produce techs, or vehicles, etc, give the AI more energy, or techs, etc) you hit Scenario editor again to return to the game - this time with SP's disabled.

G.

[knowhow2]

WP have one GIGANTIC advantage beside all the others mentioned already (boreholes, condensors, faster terra-speed), if you build a borehole in a square with either mineral or energy bonus you get the ENTIRE sum of m/e, in the early games it means 8 minerals from a mineral bonus borholes from a single square. With rec tanks it equals 10 minerals for an one citizien base- turn advantages?

If you playing with double-blind or blind how soon can you get the Eco Eng, 2200? 2220? 2230? With WP-boreholes-mineral bonus approch you can get this 10 mineral per turn at a one citizien base as soon as 2120-30.

Warmonger? start pumping up those impact rovers.
Hardcore builder? start building facilities or whatever.

WP is essential for everyone with a brain (and some mineral or energy bouns nearby).

[Jeem]

Not so Knowhow. What you mean is if you play double blind then the WP becomes more of a necessity. Ditto making a lot of friends for tech swaps. See :- double blind, flat&arid, tech stag and the like don't actually make the game more difficult, it just makes the reliance on certain projects more critical and the winning faction will usually be the one who gets them built.

I'd like to know how you can get the WP built, a colony pod and former built and a borehole drilled by 2120 also. If you play tech stag&double blind you might not even get Cent Eco before then. Fav SP's obviously just depend on your preffered type of game.

[vitamin j]

Thanks Googlie. It would be that simple, wouldn't it?
I haven't touched the scenario editor since the first time I tried. I couldn't make it do anything but generate a random map, which I couldn't alter in any way! I think something's wrong with mine...

[Chowlett]

Working up the game time and tech-tree...

I definitely want the HGP. That one more talent is one more base-square worked. Besides, I often play Zak (I recently started going random), so I need the talent pretty much straight away anyway.

WP - Not essential. I tend to be a forester - it gives a slowish start, but is as good as most things once tree farms and hybrids are in. Plus, it means that the odd mine/borehole can be dropped w/o ecological implications. I generally forest arid/moist flat/rolling, mine rocky, farm+solar rainy/rolling and call rainy/falt by situation. I'll often farm+enhance it, then crawl.

ME - very rarely do I build this, although I can see it's uses. I don't often need it, though.

VW - Pleasepleasepleaseplease. Especially as Zak, it gives holo's for no cost at all. And as I build Nodes anyway, it's damn good for the rest.

CN - more or less never. I Build and go tech-wise, and usually build only defenders early game.

PTS - by the time I hit it, I often have as many bases as I can get without going a-conquereing, so not needed.

CDF - Good, but I won't cry if I don't have it. I don't often go on the attack, and if I do my tech lead is usually good enough. On the defense - well, the AI is more fond of jets than troops.

EG - Again, I'd really quite like it. Saves time (I usually reach it before I've found everyone), and without Lal almost assures you governership.

PEG - Won't lose sleep over it.

NA - Pretty much a must have. Especially as both a denial and a wildlife defense tactic.

MCC - not needed. My navy is often the smallest on Planet

AV - good, but not necessary. Drone riots are quite rare, but the extra police unit I gain (my SE usually has POLICE at 0) is always useful.

SC - Nice, but I can live without it.

HSA - Give it to me now. Domai built it in my current game, along with the PDL. He's now the only AI not submissisive to me, and I can't give the others my tech. Grr.

LV - Usually reasonably useful, as I run planned or Green.

XD - So-so. The movement's all right, but as I've said, I tend to be a stay-at-home.

CyF - Yes. By this point I like the morale bonuses, and having them applied to all units is good.

CA - Yes - as others have said, ludicrously over-powered.

ToE - Like the SC, but I want one. If I get both, put them in the same base.

CV - unnecessary for me, but I usually take it anyway.

PM - Not really needed, my forests tend to keep ecodamage in check.

LR - Yes. By this stage I'm at war, and it offsets democracy nicely.

UT - really unneccessary, but if I can't get it there's something going wrong.

NF - Good for similar reasons al LR.

DT - Please. A lot of my troops are Native, particularly Locusts, and this works wonders against AAA.

NHT - Not really neccessary - my Probes are usually elite anyway, and Alg En isn't exactly expensive.

SE - Give CBA, not really necessary. Otherwise, I'll take it.

CI - Depends on what my victory condition is. Useful for a Diplo, but otherwise, not so.

TM - Not needed - by now, all drones are quelled anyway - but quite pleasing.

BMT - Not really needed. I'm cranking enough minerals anyway.

MH - Not a lot of fungus left, I can do without.

SI - Ditto for BMT

VoP/AtT - Well Duh.

[Blake]

from Mr Presidents original post
I know this is a pretty broad topic, but I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas on which projects people find important for their styles of play

So feel free to voice support for whatever SP you really like .
As I've already mentioned the WP is essintial for some of my play styles, namely poor research builders in adverse conditions.

However playing under more standard conditions I pride myself on not requiring any SP at all, ofcourse the HGP and VW are droolishly good, especially HGP because it reduces drone control MM, and makes it easier to get GA's.

The HSA is one I'm very willing to lose, against AI, if you have a good sensor network and defensive probe teams, and stack your units you have nothing to fear from probe teams. It has obvious merits for denial, but I find it's twice as fun having to find ways to extract Zak's tech other than just outright stealing it.

The PEG is one I like a lot, because it is balanced but effective, and off on a tangent on the tech tree, making it fairly easy to get in challenge games. (Then again I mostly play SMAC)

The AV is another one I like, being fond of specialists, and all. I also find it quite balanced.

ME would be by far the least important for my play style, mainly because I refuse to crawl energy.

Ultimately, my preffered style of play is "for fun", so I tend to look for balance in a SP, more than mind-boggling power.

My other preffered style is 'uber-powerfull pacifist builder" where I try to snag all the SP's, but never go on the offensive.