World War AC

[Tokamak]

As long as I'm here...

I think I'll place lurking units along the rivers and roads of the Coalition empire. This is it compensate for the fact that the AI doesn't use crawlers to ZOC the approaches like a human would. This should slow down an early rush just enough to keep it from becoming a sure thing. These custom units will be named Justin'sBane and The Commodorecker in honor of the two who pioneered the rush strategy against the Coalition

[Velociryx]

Latest reports:

Made two attempts over the weekend, both ended in failure.

The first, was my attempt to make straight for the Planetary Datalinks and keep pace that way. No dice. Yang started on it while I was still three techs from being able to. Probing him to try to get the needed techs got me everything but what I needed, so I missed that.

From there, I shifted toward restriction lifting, and then to choppers. Had much more success holding the line this time. None of my bases fell to Yang/Miriam during this period, but now and then it was a near thing. (Actually wound up making extensive use of artillery, too!).

Got choppers in ’69, upgraded him in ’70, and ’71 was (I thought) a pivotal year. My lone chopper made for the base under heaviest fire and utterly routed the 16 units—including a number of probes in the combined Miriam/Yang base-busting party. One turn slower, and the base surely would have been overrun, so we truly had something to crow about.

From there, it was significantly harder. No more probing for tech, thanks to the constant AI patrols with needle jets, and although I could hold the line, I could not afford to do that AND launch an attack toward Yang’s bases.

Then the baddies got Fusion and it got MUCH harder to even hold the line, but I was working with it….we were losing choppers now, but I was still dealing with it, but we weren’t getting anywhere, and I watched more or less helplessly as Lal was absorbed by an ever-more-powerful Miriam. The total anihilation of Lal at her hands took 12 turns from start to finish.

Two turns after Lal fell to the Believers, Santiago (who was losing her war with Dee) lobbed three PB’s at her. While that didn’t kill her, it did deprive her of her five best bases, which pretty much took her out of the fight.

Shortly after that, Santiago hit me with….ready for this….thirty-two missiles all in the same turn, and at every base I had, except the ones currently being attacked by her allies. All my defenders were killed, along with all their probe support. That same turn, I got the message that due to extensive ecological damage, sea levels would be rising over the next 20 years, which endangered my capitol.

That was pretty much game.

Second attempt didn’t last very long…I decided to use the rush strategy in an effort to snag Hivean bases early.

Despite the fact that the math was very much on my side (didn’t we JUST have a thread about this?!), my X-Impact rovers got THRASHED by Hivean 2-2-1’s! My attack force consisted of five attack rovers (built on the cheap and upgraded en route), two of which got lost taking the base, with the remaining getting taken out the following turn, when eleven Hive rovers counter attacked. I got all but two, but….

So that game pretty much ended there.

I’ll prolly try the rush again, mostly because in THEORY the battles should have been much easier than they were, and that seems the most workable approach.

-=Vel=-
(back to the drawing board!)

[Tokamak]

Very interesting!

Lal is apparently the weak link in the chain. Whether his inevitable demise makes this scenario more fun or not is a question that I still haven't answered.

The PlanetBuster thing sounds like it might be game-breaking, even for a game that's supposed to be hard. I'll either disable nukes, or alter the tree to give Orbital Defense Pods before nuclear weapons. Any thoughts on this?

I was surprised by the outcome of your rover rush. JustinSane and The Commodore have both reported phenomenal successes with rush tactics (ie capture of The Hive by 2120!). Was it bad luck? Or maybe the rushers hit earlier than you did?

While I'm at it, did you two (JustinSane and The Commodore) continue your games after that? If so, how did things go? Was it too easy afterwards, or is the challenge still viable?

[death_head]

Keep it so Lal always dies!

[The Commodore]

Did you nae listen lad? I said, I left my borders undefended by probes, and lost to your probe-loving Miriam!

I also think I was rather lucky...Yang didn't get Pulse or Plasma armor 'till I had taken all but one of those bases. Also, I got and kept the borehole cluster, which was my war factory, and, with all those Monoliths, upgrade center. Once again, this was at the price of ignoring my eastern borders.

[Tokamak]

Auch! I guess I nae dinnae, lad, 'cause ye clearly state in ye post that after yer attack...

All your base are belong to Miriam!

[JustinSane]

I found that the game was still pretty tough even after removing Yang from the continent, since I had to use the Cult to get a rapid conquest (even the gaians lack the punch needed, the +2 planet matters both in psi-attack and capturing enough worms fast enough). The cult are great at rushing when there is a lot of fungus, but not so great at research. I found the Believers to be a massive pain in the neck even without yang, since they tended to be a bit ahead in tech and build a ton of rovers, which are the best counter to worms imho, at least pre-airpower. There were also the endless probe teams to deal with, which ended up forcing me to fundamentalist. Miriam was also immune to any probe action (annoying). That said, eventually the worm production from the monsoon jungle bases got to be overwhelming, especially once I got the neural amplifier. (bee-lined for it as soon as I got centuari empathy) I quit that game after the war against miriam had clearly turned to my favor. It was still a lot tougher than the average trancend level game though. I also got a rover-rush to work with the cybernetics, but that was a lot tougher, and not a sure thing (2/3 at taking yang out, each time just barely, and I'm pretty sure miriam would have beaten me at after at least one of those. I quit after the success or failure of the rush in each case.) Also, just for the fun of it, I confirmed both that rushing with Marr is too easy and rover-rushing with Morgan is stupid
Just a slight correction, but the earliest I was able to take the base The Hive was mid-2120's, 2126 I believe. And that was indeed a fluke I've not been able to duplicate, 5-10 years later is more standard with the cult. I play cult about 90% of the time, so the worm rush is one of the few strategies I can execute reasonably efficiently And I'm tremendously honored to have an annoying enemy unit named after me! Thanks!

[Tokamak]

double post deleted

[Tokamak]

I just finished the map! Man, it feels great to have that over with. A big thank you goes out to Blake, whose very clean-looking map inspired me to scrap my old one and start over. His mod can be found here. Now, all I have to do is setup the factions and do some basic playtesting to see if all the parts work. I should have a playable version out by Friday, tops. Just in time for my birthday. Neat.

Hey, big_canuk, what do you mean when you said you put stockpile energy in the building queue? Is that some kind of trick, or do you just mean that you were stockpiling energy? The way you worded it, it sounded like it could be the former. I'm curious.

I'm considering some pretty serious changs to the basic rules. Choppers will almost certainly be reduced to a movement of 4 (remeber that better reactors improve this).

Orbital Defense Pods, and possibly Flechette stations, will be moved forward, so that the player has a reasonable of protecting himself from nukes. If PlanetBusters turn out to be too persistant a problem, I'll just turn them off.

Huge changes to the faction.txt's. All AI units will receive Clean Reactors and Non-lethal Methods for free. I'll probably also add 2 or 3 points to each of their Police ratings. The AI just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of Pacifist drones, so I'll elminate them as a factor. Santaigo will be given Sven's 'Aquatic, 0' power to make her naval focus more workable. I almost just switched her out with the Pirates, to do honest.

I'll fiddle with the alpha.text to make Hybrid Forests more appealing to the AI, and Pressure Domes less so. Maybe I can make it build more satellites, too.

I will take steps to improve the AI factions' 'clean mineral' threshold, making their carefully pre-planned terraforming less vulnerable to the computer's total ignorance of eco-damage.

Tech-stealing will be off. The poor AI can't defend its bases from probe teams to save its life. I stopped stealing tech from the computer a long time ago, because of this. Now I'm just making it official. I expect this one to be very unpopular with some people. If demand is high, I might make a 'tech-steal on' version as well.

Steps will be taken to insure that the Cloning Vats will fall into Coalition hands. The Cloudbase Academy and Planetary Datalinks will be gone.

When Vel's mod finally takes off, I might make a another SMAC Down scenario using his rules. The harsh environment proposed by Vel seems perfect for a game like this.

[JustinSane]

Are you sure it's possible to win this scenario? No tech steal, no datalinks, and I'm assuming spoils of war is off. How will any non-cybernetic faction even close to keep up in tech? And free clean reactors and police units!? You're kidding, right? Yang with an infinite army isn't anything close to balanced.. that's the point though I suppose... Sounds like fun I've already got an idea for a potentially feasible rush. For the record, you can count me among the unskilled players who will have a terrible time getting by without stealing technology Also, what about the Data Angels? They might be one of only two viable player factions, with the techshare 3 with infiltration faction ability. Is this considered ok?

[Tokamak]

I haven't playtested it yet, so none of the things mentioned above are final. Remember, you can share tech with your friends once you contact them, putting you pretty much on even footing with the enemy, tech-wise.

As for the monster AI advantages, well... remember that a human player can do lots of things that the AI can't. Think crawlers, defensive probe teams, choppers that don't crash every turn... The idea is that a skilled player will be able to keep up with the AI, but won't be able to totally dominate it, like he could in a normal scenario. I know that my approach is pretty heavy-handed, but that's what it takes to make the computer a viable threat to a skilled player.

The Data Angels would be really fun to play in this scenario. I don't know if the Sharetech power would be too much or not, though. This might be counter-balanced by the fact that your probes will be essentially useless against Miriam, a serious vulnerability.

Also, a Green strategy is perfectly viable in this game. It might be even too good if you're playing Dee or Cha. Dunno yet. I have a feeling that you're gonna test this one for me

I tried to set this map up so that there were a large number of possible strategies. Whether or not that will be true in practice is something that will be found out during playtesting.

[JustinSane]

You've made some excellent points, in light of which I'd have to agree with your design decisions. You're also right that I can't wait to try a green strategy in this scenario. Specifically, I plan to go for Doc. Flexibility asap and rush santiago with a combination of laser foils and IOD's. Should be a lot of fun to try I'd also like to thank you for making these scenarios, they've got to take a lot of time to produce. I've had a great time playing it so far, and look forward to the new version!

[Blake]

"Inifite AI armies"

Clean reactors are not very usfull at all to AI yang and AI Miriam. Both of these factions have +4 support when running power, and in these mods tend to have massive bases, this combined means they can support 14 units per base(!!). It's no co-incidence that Yang is the strongest AI, he already has the equivilant of free clean reactors.

The factions you have to watch out for are the others - which will no longer be burdened by support costs and FM drones.

[mark13]

Hi all,

Decided to squeeze a quick couple of efforts at the original scenario. Here's what happened:

Inspired by the thread, I decided the EG was certainly the way to go. Set up early bases, threw tanks and crawlers out like a madman, and got in touch with my allies. Proceeded to trade a few techs - at one point was only one tech behind the evil alliance - and went for restrictions about 2145 or so.

That's when the Miriam wave came. Simply wasn't prepared for it - though my makeshift defensive front did remarkably well considering the circumstances. I'd just traded AdapDoc beforehand, and so prototyped 3p armor immediately, upgraded my scouts, and shifted a couple of probes in.

Unfortunately, the wall broke about four years into the offensive. Having had my probe garrison beaten the turn before, I was slow to put another one back in - she duly mind-controlld the base, along with the four 3p garrisons in it. Suffice to say, I quit after that....

In many ways, it was a shame - I had held considerable promise for my position up 'til then. But WOW - what power from the AI front! Never seen as competitive an AI in all my life....good job it's a huge map!

So, I fired up another go. Despite my fairly humiliating defeat, I decided the main strategy (to which I owe the board here) was sound. It's clear there's not a lot of room for error in this scenario, that's for sure!

My second attempt started in similar fashion to the first. This time, however, I made certain I was well defended on the Miriam front, whilst wary of any possible offensive from Yang (he'd thrown a couple of units my way in the original effort, but nothing too bad).

And it's a damn good job I was ready - in the year 2141, 6 (six) recon rovers came my way. As I say, I'd made most of the necessary preparations this time (3p defenders along with a scout, sensor, perimeter, road network etc.) so the attack wasn't crippling (I lost one garrison) - but it was certainly enough to wake me up. Meanwhile, all was quiet on the Miriam front - nothing had come my way.

It was clear from that point that this game had progressed very differently to the first - Yang had stolen the land directly to the south-east of mine, and so Miriam's expansion was hampered.

Meanwhile, my allies were doing a sterling job providing me with tech. We were only two techs behind by the time D:AP hit (I had D:AP before the alliance) but unfortunately didn't quite have the productivity I'd have liked to churn units out en masse. But, the tide of the war was certainly changing - the threat to my frontier bases at this stage was negligible and though the odd unit was slipping through the net, most of the fighting was taking place in the midfield.

Slowly, slowly, we were pinning them back toward their bases. In a freak slice of luck, I managed to steal P-SA and *Fusion* in successive probe actions - so I was able to build the Hunter-Seeker! A more massive SP it was not possible to get. After that followed MMI in 2173 (along with the Cloudbase) and, though I missed te Cyborg Factory to the Hive (dammit!) my army was growing in potency.

Satellites followed, which revealed the map - helped the cause massively, as I could finally plan my attacks. At this stage, most of the attention was focused on Yang - though the odd Miriam unit slipped through. I was finally in a position for a conquest of my own - and that's how it evolved. By this stage, my principal bases had been boomed well into double figures size-wise. First came the seizure of a couple of fringe bases in the early 70s, then we got to the meaty part - the Leader's Horde (I think) was taken in 2180.

The plan was set to go straight for the HQ on this side of the world, to render energy production of all these bases redundant. So that's what I did - although it had a few uits, it was surprisingly sparsely defended. We took that in 2182 - they relocated - we took the new HQ two years later. To add to our bounty was both the PEG and the CN - two pretty big SPs, given the circumstances.

Meanwhile, over in Miriam territory, things were also getting interesting. A couple of fringe bases were conquered as nothing more than an afterthought, as all of a sudden I realised I was within a stone's throw of their HQ! It didn't take long for my drop troops to get in there (amazingly, *no* Miriam bases had Aerospace Complexes?!) and we took the HQ in 2187 - practically halving their research capacity. Though I lost the base - and the three SPs that came with it (drat!) I'd gotten rid of their HQ in this hemisphere, which was what I wanted.

The Hive were eventually eradicated from the north in 2190 - thereby providing a *massive* boost to both my research capability and my industrial capacity. Also crucially nabbed the Vats in 2191 (hooray!) so all my bases - not to mention my economy - are booming.

And that's where I'm stood right now - leaving the game in an inherently winable position. Plans for the future? Well, obviously Miriam is going to be the biggest threat - she must be neutralised. Santiago isn't much of a problem - a couple of stray missiles, but nothing else. Come to think of it, I found a horde of at least 15 missiles in a coastal seabase - lucky my chopper was onhand

Still - the game holds great promise. Hopefully I'll be able to finish it off tomorrow - a full report of the play-out will hopefully come then. Whatever the outcome, my thanks to Tokamak for a fantastic scenario. Definitely five happy-smiley-faces out of five from this corner

[Tokamak]

Sounds like you're handling it better than most.

What SE choices did you use? Did you start off with Planned or Free Market? When did you turn on Democracy? Or did you? Etc. I'm not sure myself which approach is better, so I love hearing people's thoughts.

For those that care, I've finally finished all the picky detail work on the map. I've set up the AI bases and let them run wild (I didn't actually play). With a little tweaking here and there, I got all the AI factions to grow at a reasonable pace, and in the right directions.

Expect for Morgan, that is. That stupid SOB just won't expand his empire! Even with lush terrain, he doesn't figure it out. He chose to build his bases in the fungal morass, rather than the jungle that was right next door! Bleh! All the other factions managed to pop out 4-5 bases within 20 years. Morgan squeezed out two. No wonder Morgan Industries let their CEO go out into space!

One thing I'm hoping to do is to encourage the enemy to build their projects in the more distant bases. With a little more tweaking, I'm sure I can make it work.

I'll probably have a working scenario sometime tomorrow, and a non-X version by Friday. I'm going to post them both at the same time, so that I can have them attached to consecutive posts at the top of a new thread. If no serious gameplay issues are discovered, I guess I'll humbly present SMAC Down to Mark G., and see if he wants to add it to his download section.

Oof! It's been fun, but I'm ready for a break. It'll be nice to just sit back and actually play my creation. After all, originally I made this thing just to amuse myself.