Automated Units..Who needs 'em?

[Iskandar Reza]

Originally posted by Drago Sinio
.......

Its also fun to drive a couple transports full of artillery over to your enemy, and set them on auto. They just start bombarding everything in sight. It seems that auto units have better odds when destroying terraforming, too. Not sure about that.

are you telling me arties on a transport can do that spore launcher-IoD remote sniping act? how? details please..

[death_head]

details, details...




As you can tell I really like this little guy.

[Fitz]

Um, you guys are kinda confusing me. There are two on alert status that you can use for units. L (alert/load) and Shift-L.

The L button, I know for a fact, merely holds until an enemy unit moves adjecant, then takes it off hold. You can take it off hold and move it at any time. If you move transport into a base with an L unit, it wakes up. If you move a transport "through" a base (with a draged path/goto) it picks up the L unit without even telling you (beware this). However, it will not attack enemy units on your off-turn.

The Shift L will attack. I know very little else about it.

Now, which one is who talking about? Some people sounded very sure that you lost the units turn with one (probably Shift L), yet scipio is refuting this. It sounds like Scipio is talking about the L command. Am I right?

[Scipio Centaurus]

I am refereing to the "SHIFT+L" command that places units 'on combat alert'. I only use the "L" command to load units onto transports. I was/am unaware that it had any other function.

Units on alert in the field enjoy the ability to become active and move at any time during a game turn as long as they have not been engaged in combat during the preceding off-turn (when the AI moves). Unfortunately units on alert in a base designated "(On Alert) Moved" can not be moved in the same game turn. Afte many hours of experimenting I discovered a cheat/trick/mechanism/ingenious technique (take your pick) to allow said base-locked units to become active and move out of the base in the same game turn. That chicanery is discussed in a previous post in this thread.

- Scipio

[johndmuller]

Fitz, I imagine Scipio is talking about the >Shift<>L<. As you were saying, the >L< is basically the Sentry command., where there are no machinations needed to wake up units during your turn. I take it that Scipio is describing a trick to wake up a >Shift<>L<'ed unit. I use the (unshifted) >L< command all the time and it's fine except for those unexpected sea voyages (the sometimes counterintuitive route selection of the transports can trap the unwary dragger) and the Locust thing (below).

IIRC, I've had trouble with both the >Shift<>L< and the (unshifted) >L< commands when applied to Locusts outside the base (no effect with (unshifted) >L< and with the >Shift<>L< the Locust zooming off in some odd direction - perhaps like "auto" might be) and have been forced to use the >Shift<>H< (10 turn Hold) to use a Locust as a lookout-sentry-guard (the 10 turn thing so I don't forget about it).

[Scipio Centaurus]

I think we need to find out, if there is any quantifiable difference in defensive combat when using "L" (LOAD UNIT) command for off-turn defense vs. using the "SHIFT+L" (ON COMBAT ALERT) command. If the unit defends equally well with either command then I am hard pressed to come up with any reason to ever use the "SHIFT+L" command. In fact, I can't think of any reason why that command would even need to exist.

My suspicion is that "L" defends no better than the "H" (HOLD) or active moving units defend, and that the main benefit of the "L" command is for loading units onto transports.

I believe (but cannot prove) that the "SHIFT+L" command offers actual improved defense during off-turn combat over the "L" and "H" commands or active unit defense.

Can anyone think of a good way to verify/disprove this theory?

- Scipio

[death_head]

Well, I've always thought trial and error was a viable option...

Your best bet is to run some Hotseat tests, where you can closely monitor all activities.

[Fitz]

As I understand it Shift-L (on-alert) attacks enemy units that move adjectent (within range?) of the unit. L (sentry) merely defends as normal (with armor) and if an enemy unit moves adjacent, it comes out it's hold status, regardless of whether or not it is attacked.

I'm pretty sure that Shift-L (on-alert) is within range, because I have seen units with that command in a base move out to attack an enemy, usually when it is the only defender, and to my great dismay.

Thus, I only use Shift-L when the unit is planning to guard a choke point and probably hiding in fungus. Occassionally, I will put it on a bunkered unit, but I prefer not to because I know it may move out of th ebunker to attack.

Scipio, I misread your post. I didn't realize you were talking about a workaround for already moved "on-alert" units. I saw the part about going into the base and clicking on all the units to activate them, and skipped everything else because that part is what I do to get all my L (sentry) units awake.

[Scipio Centaurus]

As I understand it Shift-L (on-alert) attacks enemy units that move adjectent (within range?) of the unit. L (sentry) merely defends as normal (with armor) and if an enemy unit moves adjacent, it comes out it's hold status, regardless of whether or not it is attacked.

That is a much more more satisfying explanation than my long standing assumption that there was some kind of off-turn defensive bonus for units using the SHIFT+L command.

I'm pretty sure that Shift-L (on-alert) is within range, because I have seen units with that command in a base move out to attack an enemy, usually when it is the only defender, and to my great dismay.

Yes. I think I can recall some of my alert penetrators racing out to pick off enemy units from time-to-time. And even less often, alert naval combat vessels have moved out to attack enemy naval units. I suspect the AI needs to see pretty favorable combat odds before it will move an alert unit out of a base to attack, though. I say that because I'm pretty sure my alert units don't move out to attack enemy forces at every opportunity and when they do it seems that they favor going after non-combat units. I will try to watch this more closely in the future.

I think alert interceptors will move out to fly CAP for friendlies, but not to attack.

I really can't remember seeing any ground units move out to attack, but it may have happened. Obviously the shorter the single turn move range of your alert unit, the less likely that you will ever see it move out of a base to attack something... unless you're doing something very wrong elsewhere in your empire.

I do know that alert garrisons may move out to escort adjacent AAs.

After you get multiple defenders in a base it's probably good to leave at least one unit in reserve (HOLD/SENTRY) just to avoid that ingenious 'garrison abandons base to wipe out enemy' tactic you described the AI selecting for use by your forces.

Can anyone comment on the behaviour of artillery, missiles and other exotic unit types when placed on alert?

I believe artillery does fire on enemy units, but it always happens so fast I never really pay attention to it.

Thus, I only use Shift-L when the unit is planning to guard a choke point and probably hiding in fungus. Occassionally, I will put it on a bunkered unit, but I prefer not to because I know it may move out of th ebunker to attack.

I usually never get enough spare combat units to scatter them about the countryside outside of bases. I do use the SHIFT+L extensively when exploring. If a scout moves into fungus I will usually set it on alert... never know when you might kick over a hornet's nest. Also if a unit pops a pod and gets MWs, I switch them to alert immediately, before the MWs can attack. Seems to dramtically increase the survivability of my explorers.

Scipio, I misread your post. I didn't realize you were talking about a workaround for already moved "on-alert" units. I saw the part about going into the base and clicking on all the units to activate them, and skipped everything else because that part is what I do to get all my L (sentry) units awake.

Yea, it's kind of curious that alert units in the field that didn't do anything during the off-turn can be activated and moved, but alert units in a base that didn't do anything during the off-turn can't 'easily' be activated and moved. Sauce for the goose... as they say. I can see an alert unit anywhere that actually engaged in combat, flew CAP or otherwise moved during the off-turn not being allowed to move during the regular turn, but if it didn't do anything in the off-turn it should be able to move normally IMO.

- Scipio

[death_head]

When I place missiles on alert, they rush out to attack the first thing they see. Every time. Consider this good or bad depending on what you intended them for.

As far as artillery, I've noticed that they just sit there, and sometimes don't shell enemies that get too close. Usually they do, though...

[Scipio Centaurus]

Thanks for the feedback death_head.

Whenever I build a missile it seems I've always got a target lined up for it (dang those feisty AI factions!), so I never get any chance to place missiles on alert.

Yea, like I said if there's any defensive artillery fire going on, it happens too quick for me to notice it. From time-to-time I'll see a message about a failed artillery bombardment near one of my bases when enemy troops come calling. Artillery bombardments against units never fail to hit when you are attacking, do they? They may not do much damage to the target, but they always hit it. I know you can miss entirely when you shoot artillery at terrain enhancements. I think defensive artillery fire against units can also completely miss the target occaisionally.

- Scipio

[Avenoct]

Ok, I did do some testing, extensive, inconclusive, and definately not scientific (though science is my background).

Conclusions first:
'On Alert' acts differently in different circumstances. (Duh, but that's really all I know).

Also if a unit pops a pod and gets MWs, I switch them to alert immediately, before the MWs can attack. Seems to dramtically increase the survivability of my explorers.

If there is a Psi advantage, and it 'Feels' like there definately is, it's not properly displayed in Off-Turn responses. (qualified below)

'On Alert' units don't go out of the base on the off turn vs. units they'll have a stiff fight with (don't know if they will with good odds) with the exception that;

'On Alert' Air units act peculiarly all the time.

Finally, 'On Alert' units will display odd green potential movement paths out of a base or in the field, towards enemies or away from them and not use them, for reasons unknown.

Methods: In a nutshell I tested Gaians vs. University and Gaians vs. MW's. The Gaians had two bases and every tech. I even gave them the XE dome. Nonetheless, they ignored MW's untill they were actually attacked in the off-turn. The 'On Alert' units in the field and in the bases seemed to do about twice as well defending as the units I had sitting around with no commands. However, if they had an advantage it was not displayed. The psi-combat was 3:2 according to the combat display. I of course tried this with all different sorts of Psi-combatants and Planet Ratings from +1 to +6. I gave the university some nice hovertanks and choppers and whatnot, but that part of my testing was inconclusive.

Discussion:

I believe there is an unprinted Psi advantage to units 'On Alert' and Defending in the field or in a base. I don't know if there is a comparable advantage to 'On Alert' units attacking as I couldn't make that happen for the life of Deirdre. This supports the idea in the quote above.
I got a gravship to go out from base and pummel Zak about 6 squares away, but I'm darn sure it did this on my turn and not in the off-turn. Once it had killed Zaks hovertank I could do nothing with it that turn (of course). So I can't seem to get my units to Attack during the Off-Turn at all. Instead they respond as defenders in the off-turn, at least 'On Paper' in the combat display, or as Attackers at the beginning of my turn. They may be defending Weapon vs. Weapon, but it's not displayed that way, and hence, hard to test. The Psi mystery supports that they defend using their attack strength. Air Units. The choppers were the worst! They patrolled wildly, landing in the field even though they were On-Alert and not set to patrol! Noodles looped in crazed patrols. Only the Gravship seemed determined to take action in a meaningful way. My conclusion is that On-Alert-Air is really a throughback to TWA air-traffic-control methods.

More testing! But I'm not the person to do it. I'm easily fatigued from a major PIA factor in setting up the tests.

A couple comments: One, I don't see units attacking in the off turn at all yet. Rather they seem to be acting at the beginning of my turn...someone test that! Two, I'm having difficulty seeing the utility of OA units in the base unless they really are defending with attack strength and/or are operating in the off-turn. They don't seem to go after units in the off-turn, so I'd rather just control them myself if that's true. Three, what's up with airpower OA? Four, why do OA units send out little 'feelers' for movement and not take them? What are they for anyways? Watch closely (easiest is to stack a whole bunch so you have time to catch it). Five, if anyone cares to describe an easier test, I'll help, but I've not got the knack for setting up the parameters yet.

Happy Crawlering! (Psi-crawler on alert),

Smack

[Scipio Centaurus]

OK...

I placed 10 very green PK scout units in isolated land squares on a random map (clear terrain) and placed a rogue hatchling MW next to each scout. After some messing around I finally got the MWs to attack each adjacent scout unit. Every scout survived with widely varying amounts of damage. After reloading the scenario, I could not coax the scenario editor to let the same scout units attack the MWs, so I gave up on that half of the test.

In actual games I have lost many scouts to MWs popped out of pods and encountered at random. So these test results are not convincing to me at all. Maybe random MWs are pre-boil instead of hatchlings? I just got some MWs out of a pod in one of my PBEMs and it looks like a hatchling, but I can't confirm that.

Anyway, I'll continue to set units that encounter MWs in the wild on alert, because ever since I started doing that my losses SEEM to have dropped. Can't prove it, though. Other players should do whatever makes them feel comfortable when exploring. Do not assume that alert units are getting any kind of defensive bonus.

As far as the 'on alert' command, I never said that it made units attack instead of defend. I said it made it SEEM like my units were attacking. I was generically refering to scout vs MW early game encounters. When MWs got the jump on my scouts (prior to my setting them on alert) it always seemed that my scouts had a 50% chance of survival at best. Does anyone know how to find out combat odds from an off-turn attack? Anyway, when my scouts are in position to carry the attack to the MWs, I usually get at least 2:1 combat odds in my favor.

After implementing the technique of setting my scouts on alert prior to a MW attack, it SEEMS to me that my scouts survivability percentage increased to something on the same order as the 2:1 or even better combat odds enjoyed by my scouts when attacking. I have absolutely no statistical proof that this is true.

After a note from Fitz earlier in this thread, I am inclined to believe that placing units on alert gives them the OPTION (AI determined) to respond (including necessary movement) to targets of opportuity that have moved within SINGLE TURN movement range of the alert unit. The nature of the alert unit's response seems to depend on the type of the alert unit (i.e penetrators attack land/sea targets, interceptors attack airborne targets or just fly CAP for nearby friendlies, etc). The actual alert response occurs during the regular turn when it is the alert unit's time to make its normal move. I presume, given a pause in the game turn, you could take alert units off of alert status and give them other orders at any time during the turn, before the game engine cycles past that unit's movement. Needs verifying.

- Scipio

[Fitz]

Sorry, I was assuming too that the on alert unit made it's attack in the off turn, but I think (trying to remember to my very early games) that it actually executes any attacks it can on it's turn. So there shouldn't be any bonus to defense. That doesn't mean there isn't though, given the typical firaxis programming.

[Avenoct]

I don't know why this 'On Alert' thing has gotten me so perplexed, I think it's b/c it's singularly hard to test and might provide a significant and subtle advantage to gameplay.

I'm going back in to test a few more things in a bit, but thought I'd add a little to the discussion thus-far.

Yea, like I said if there's any defensive artillery fire going on, it happens too quick for me to notice it.

One thing that's been helping me is creating massive stacks of identical units...though it's still fast, the repeats make it visible...secondly I turn on the music which I don't normally care for...not much help, but slightly slower.

it actually executes any attacks it can on it's turn. So there shouldn't be any bonus to defense. That doesn't mean there isn't though,

One little theory..some have said the AI has slight advantages (unprinted) in combat. I concur..when it's 2:2 for instance, the AI invariably wins. What if OA units are considered to be AI units rather than human? That would give them the AI combat advantage.

Does anyone know how to find out combat odds from an off-turn attack?

Don't think it's possible. The problem with Hotseat testing is that it's not technically an 'Off-turn' for the Otherguy who's units you face b/c it's still a human turn.

Ok, time for mass-stacked arty tests and a few more air to air and air to ground tests.

-Smack