Forest - The Best Terraform

[b&i_c]

I think that forests are above and beyond and other terraform.

#1: They can have a sensor build on top of them.
#2: They expand on their own
#3: Once you get a Hybrid Forest, you're gonna have +100% Psych and Econ.
#4: With a HF, you can have a flat arid square produce 3/3/2, which is darn good.

I use Forests for almost everything, except:

Arid Rocky: Borehole if possible, and if not, flatten and forest
Moist Rocky: Mine
Rainy Rocky: Level and then if < 1000m Farm/Mine/Road, and if >1000m Farm/Solar/Road
Rainy: Same as above

Forests are the best, PERIOD!

[Iskandar Reza]

i only use forests if it's arid and nothing more. otherwise, why waste a perfectly good rolling rainy square on some lousy forests that won't let you expand beyond size 2?

[theohall]

Yes, forests are great you big tree lover. However, specialized terraforming (ie farm/condenser combos for one) also has it's benefits.

It requires workers to make those hybrid forest sqaures work. A worker which could be acting as a talent and increasing labs/econ/psych without even working a square.

Specializing sqaures, especially for maximizing nutrient production, and then using Crawlers to send the food back, frees up workers.

As to collectors - find the highest ground you can, even raise it, then build rows of Echelon mirrors and collectors side by side. Then crawl the energy back to base. (Energy Park strategy) This also frees up workers from having to work squares.

A combination of foresting and specializing has worked best for me.

Don't get me wrong, I love forests for their eco-damage reduction, but don't overlook other forms of terraforming combos.

[johndmuller]

IMhO, it depends.

[bondetamp]

Originally posted by johndmuller
IMhO, it depends.

Now, that's a statement I can agree with.

Forests Vs specialized depends on how much trouble I feel like going through. If I'm going for an anal retentive four monts long game, then I make scores of bases in a coastal sircle around a decent sized continent and then put crawlers on specialized squares in the middle. I usually fit enough room for a small energy park, and then mine/road all the rocky squares I can find, borehole the coast and farm++ the rest. This can give me approx 150+/- bases with good production and growth and one base with awesome energy output. It also gives me a lot of polution, but that's just a bonus with the planet pearls et. al.

If I'm feeling lazy, I just forest the whole thing, with maybe one crawlered farm per base and a few scattered boreholes. It isn't as efficient but it makes the turns go twice as fast or more.

[WhiteElephants]

Yes, I imagine it depends mostly on what stage of the game your in (what techs you have availabe) ,what facilities, and the lay of the land.

All that aside, B&I piqued my interest because he differentiated what terraforming he'd put on an arid rocky tile vs. a moist rocky tile. So, why the difference B&I?

Oh, and as for #3 -- well, yeah you have to have Hybrid Forests AND a Tree farm-- in the mean time you've got a size 2 base.

And for #4 -- I always thought a Hybrid Forest would give you 2/2/2. And even if you did have a tree farm wouldn't you only get 3/2/2, not 3/3/2?

[b&i_c]

Originally posted by Iskandar Reza
i only use forests if it's arid and nothing more. otherwise, why waste a perfectly good rolling rainy square on some lousy forests that won't let you expand beyond size 2?

I said that if it was rainy I do either Mine/Farm/Road, or Solar/Farm/Road depending on the altitude.

I'm almost positive that you get 3/3/2 with a Hybrid Forest (of course to get a HF you need a Tree Farm).

My bases are usually big enough to build good facilities before I build the HF because I plant one forest, then proceed to terraform all the other squares that aren't "suitable" for forests so that they get lots of nutrients.

I put a mine on a moist rocky square because then you will get 5 resources total (with the one nutrient), and help pay the way for that worker's food, where as with a arid square, you only get 4 resources, and with a forest, you get 4 resoureces even w/o any Forest improvements, and WITH them, you get 8!

[Paul]

A forest gives only 2 minerals. If you have a TF and HF you will get 3-2-3 (assuming +2 econ).

[WhiteElephants]

B&I -- Ahhh... it has been so long since I put a farm and a mine together I had forgotten you could even do it.

Here's two free tips --

1. Skip the farm/mine/road combo. Go mine/road. Yes, I know 5 resources vs. 4 resources, but why not put a crawler on that mine/road for the 4 minerals and put your worker somewhere else? By the time you can get 4 minerals from a mine/road combo you already have crawlers so don't waste time putting a farm on a mine/road when you could be building it on a moist square above 1000 meters with a solar collector. They take the exact same amount of time to build only you'll be getting an extra nutrient for the farm that's not on the mine.

2. Be careful when you start judging the usefullness of a tile by adding up the amount of resources it gives you -- i.e. forest with tree farm/hybrid forest 3/2/2 = 7. Example, say you've reached your pop limit. What good are three more nutrients when your already adequetely feeding a population that can't grow? Essentially those extra three nuts are worth zero and that 3/2/2 tile in really only good for the mins and energy, therefore equals a value of 4. Or lets say you've reached your ecodamage limit and any more minerals are going to put you in the red. While they would still be contributing to progress, unlike the extra nuts, they're above and beyond what you might need or want to risk in the case of a mindworm pop. What I'm getting at is that while a 3/2/2 tile looks good there are only so many uses for them and 2 minerals and 2 energy isn't all that appetizing in the mid to late game.

[johndmuller]

b&i_c , have you tried out heavy use of specialists yet? Engineers produce both econ and labs IIRC, and are not subject to efficiency losses but are subject to "multiplier" effects from energy and most lab enhancing facilities. I think that they are available around the time that HFs are, but there are also Technicians (who only produce econ) earlier in a similar role; they also keep erstwhile drones out of trouble. I bring up specialists because they prosper with a development heavy in Nutrient production (so that you can have more of them). I think you can produce at least 6 nuts from a tile with enough farm/soil-enricher/condensor action going on. That translates into room and board for 3 specialists; you likely wouldn't need the condensor in each tile, so you could still get a min and an extra energy or two. Thats not to say that the TF/HF thing is bad, but neither is being rich and smart.

In the early game, a forest on a special (any kind) is a nice thing to have, and in the late game, plain old fungus isn't bad either.

I think that forested tiles with TF & HF are worth 3-2-2, or 3-2-3 if on a river or uranium tile.
Fungus tiles with all the restrictions lifted I believe are 2-3-3 unless you are Dee who would get 3-3-3.

[b&i_c]

Wait, you mean putting a crawler inside the base radius???

Well with a Hybrid Forest, there is no terraforming limit, and with a Centauri Preserve, your minerals limit is pretty high, but the pop limit is a major problem you're right.

Yes, fungus does get pretty good late in the game, especially if you have the Manifold Harmonics , but by the time you get all the techs, you have spent the whole game getting rid of fungus, so you don't really want to plant more of it.

[WhiteElephants]

Yes, in the base radius. That way you reap the benefits from the mine/road and then put that worker on, say, a farm/solar collector or one of your beloved forest tiles. Sure, you miss out on one nutrient from the farm/mine, but you gain on average (assuming you put the worker on a farm/solar) +1 nut +1min +2 energy. Or if you like specialists (everybody likes specialists, right?) you can alternately change the mine worker into one, usually netting you +3 enegy or +3 labs, until the advent of Fussion power where you can change that lazy American worker into an Engineer netting you +3 energy and +2 labs -- what wonderful little buggers. Before you know it your bases will be running with the speed and efficency of a Japanese auto factory.

Depending upon your base spacing you probably won't work all your tiles anyway and by that time you can always build satellities to supplement nuts, mins, or energy.

PS -- There was an interesting debate recently between those who supported only using specialists after all the base squares had been worked and those of us who supported using specialists before all the base squares were worked. You might want to look it up. Oddly enough, I believe that title had something to do with "+2 Research". I think it was called "What does +2 Research do?". Or something to that effect.

No more freebies.

[b&i_c]

I'm for not using specialists until base limit has been reached then. It just seems like a total waste putting a crawler in a city radius square when you could just as easily (and more cheaply) put a worker there.

[theohall]

Here is the argument for putting a crawler in the base radius

One crawler - crawls in minerals or nutrients from a special.

The worker that would've worked either sqaure is then turned into a specialist and rakes in Econ + Labs (Engineers rule). When the specialist become Empaths a mix of Engineers, Librarians and Empaths with Crawlers handling the grunt work is very effective.

The only sqaure I find absolutely essential to place workers on his Boreholes. The others can be handled by Crawlers if managed effectively. Farms/solars on high elevation sqaures usually get worked as well, though.

This is for later in the game. Early game is a different story entirely.

[johndmuller]

Originally posted by b&i_c
I'm for not using specialists until base limit has been reached then. It just seems like a total waste putting a crawler in a city radius square when you could just as easily (and more cheaply) put a worker there.

Former=20mins; Crawler=30mins; Total Cost=50mins
Crawled forest or early mine=2mins/turn; paybacik=25turns
Crawled unrestricted mine/road=4mins/turn; payback=12.5 turns

During those 25 turns, the specialist could have produced 75 econ or labs (pre engineer) or 75 econ and 50 labs with an engineer; empaths and transcendi have other possibilities. You also end up with a fully amortized former and crawler to boot (although you have invested a few turns of opportunity cost in building the crawler).

These specialists will also usually allow for population growth beyond the drone limit without using any psych. If you are dependent upon psych, you may find yourself in a resource bind when the ED starts creeping in.

If you crawl a few mines and maybe a high nut tile or two and have a bunch of forests (hopefully enhanced), you can sustain a highly productive base.