Pops

[Darkstar]

John, I ran a few games just to see how high I could get the ED to go. Very quickly, thanks to boreholes, mines, and crawling minerals, I had it in the 400 range. But I just couldn't push it higher at the time... no free mineral spots to send back.

That base never suffered a pop until I dropped it's ED WAY down. Although I did have pops going on my second continent... whenever the genejack factory went in, that generally got them into the 2 to 6 range... and they popped a LOT, until they got down to 0.

Now, maybe the ED figure gets plugged into the random pop generator, and IT can't handle a figure that is "too high". But that just saves you from local pops. I have used that trick in a few other games since seeing that oddity, and let me tell you, Planet likes to FLOOD if you have more then one city doing that.

I certainly won't argue with people that have made a serious study of population and tech effects on ED. But I recall having seen bases gain ED by population growth alone. No new squares worked (cause it has to be changed to a entertainer, excuse me, doctor). Mineral count remaining the same and no new terraforming. Bango, ED value now of 2 and had been clean. I'll keep my eyes open for that situation for a while, to catch a game set of before and after though, now that I know that it might be useful to have. Maybe I missed something, or misunderstood what had ACTUALLY happened, and so I've formed a faulty theory that pop alone can cause ED.

I'm off to check out those threads mentioned!

[johndmuller]

Darkstar,
Increasing tech is a likely possibility for your increasing ED all else being equal; there's a ratio of a bunch of things including tech divided by 300, I think which periodically jumps up as your tech increases. (excerpt below from Ned's earlier post)

Eco-Damage = (DamageFactor * Perihelion * Techs * Life * Difficulty * Planet) / 300

You'll see the detail in the original thread if you persevere; I think it's called "base size and pollution", IIRC.
John

[vogon_jeltz]

Wait, call off the Nobel Prize...

Gamespot included in their strategy guide (copyright 2000; it predates SMACX) a formula eerily similar to the one proposed by Ned, Blake, and Fitz, and I quote:

"Ecology
Ecological damage is determined by the following complex formula:
1. For each base, total the number of mines, solar collectors, farms, soil enrichers, roads, mag tubes, condensers, and boreholes. Items in squares that are actually being worked count double.
2. Add an extra +8 for each borehole and +4 for each condenser.
3. Subtract 1 for each forest.
4. Halve each base that has a tree farm, and eliminate it if it also has a hybrid forest.
5. Divide this value by 8 and reduce by up to 16 (Ed: I take this to mean, if it's less than 16, reduce to 0) plus the number of previous damages (Ed: I take this to mean fungal blooms).
6. Take the number of minerals produced this turn.
7. If result from step 5 was reduced by less than 16, reduce the result from step 6 by the remaining amount.
8. Divide minerals by 1 plus the number of Centauri Preserve, Temple of Planet, and Nanoreplicator.
9. Sum the values of steps 5 and 8 and add +5 for each major atrocity.
10. If Alpha Prime is at perihelion, double your value.

Eco-Damage: (Value from step 10) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3-Planet) * Life / 300"

'Nuff said.

[Ned]

Vergon, That formula is taken almost directly from the Datalinks. It is accurate to a degree, but omits the most critical information. You will see nothing in the formula concerning increasing clean minerals, which begin at 16, as you build TFs, HFs, CPs and ToPs after a pop.

On topic, though, I had a recent game where I got a late-game pop. In this game, I had done considerable terraforming, but the world was one where I had "pre-forested" the planet. I got only two small worms from the pop. I was really surprised.

At the same time, the AI was experiencing its normal worm assault by squadrons of demon boils.

Clearly the number of forest squares in one's domain is having an effect.

Ned

[Jim_P1238]

I also think ned is right but recently I was playing a game where pops only happened after I started using the planet fusion buster. I am new to the game but could that have anything to do with it?

[vogon_jeltz]

Deleted due to double post

[vogon_jeltz]

Originally posted by Ned
Vergon, That formula is taken almost directly from the Datalinks. It is accurate to a degree, but omits the most critical information. You will see nothing in the formula concerning increasing clean minerals, which begin at 16, as you build TFs, HFs, CPs and ToPs after a pop.

Um, yes, it does. The clean minerals formulae can be derived almost directly from the formula I posted and linked to. In fact, with some simple algebra, one can write the formula in mathematical form, to wit:

DamageFactor: ((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8)

Cleanmins: min(DamageFactor, 16 + FungalBlooms)

Cleanmins1: max(0, 16 + FungalBlooms - Cleanmins)

TotalCleanMinerals: Cleanmins + Cleanmins1

DamageFactor2: ((DamageFactor + Minerals - TotalCleanMinerals) / (1 + GoodFacs)) + 5 * Atrocity

GoodFacs: CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator

Perihelion: 1 if at perihelion, 0 otherwise

EcoDamage: (DamageFactor2 * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * (Perihelion + 1))/300

or, as one big formula:

EcoDamage: (((((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8) + Minerals - (16 + FungalBlooms)) / (1 + CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator) + 5 * Atrocity) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ((1 iff(AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion)) + 1))/300

Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

Oh, BTW, learn how to spell my nick. It's a modern literary reference. ($0 and a shiny new copy of Windows XP Beta to anyone who can identify the book I took it from.)

[johndmuller]

vogon_jeltz:

While I confess that I didn't completely take apart your formula (having had 'sufficient' discussions with Fitz about parens, etc in the other thread), I believe that you will find that neither the formula in the documentation nor your formula take into account the observable phenomenon that:
--after the first >pop<, the construction of each new (TF, HF, CP, TofP) facility allows the production of (approximately) 1 (or more?) additional min(s) without additional ED.--
This effect is in addition to the influence of those facilities in the general formula or whatever torturous variation might be in this or the other thread and applies not just to the base in question, but across your whole faction. In effect, each of those facilities is like an additional >pop<. For further (more accurate) detail and as a kind of initiation rite, I would suggest that you submit yourself to the __ __ of the other thread (base size and polultion) and attempt to disprove the observations/formulae evolved within those posts.

[Blake]

Originally posted by vogon_jeltz
Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

Actually, that is basically exactly what we did do. But there are several VERY major ommisions from DL and guides formulas. And also there is a few calculations which have to be done in different orders, and also some rounding effects to take account of (only if your bored).

No amount of looking at the formula & thinking would be able to make the discoveries and changes we did in the Base Size and Pollution thread. Mainly because the most important part of controlling ED is completely ommited (the short of it is tree farms, hybrid forests, CP's, ToP's increase clean mineral threshold by +1, but then there is also a bunch of other factor, plenty enough for a very long thread)

But yeah, read the thread...

[Fitz]

Look out, it's vogon_jeltz out to keep us honest.

Vogon, we took the incorrect formula from the Prima Guide/datalinks, and figured out how to correct it. Now, is it really suprising that our results look "eerily similar" to their formula? Of course it does, it's based on the original, incorrect, formula provided by Firaxis/Prima.

The cool thing (for me) was finally being able to solve how the discrepencies between the cited formula and observed ego-damage were occuring.

Although, I don't think we ever did calcualte/prove that attrocities was absolutely divided by goodfacs and reduced by cleanmins. I'll have to go reread our thread again.

[Fitz]

Originally posted by vogon_jeltz
Now, I'm not saying that you plagiarized their work, but it would have been quite a bit easier to quote their formula and make the appropriate changes for SMACX...

That's exactly what we did. Actually, I have no idea if our revised formula holds in SMAC the original. *Adds to checklist*

EcoDamage: (((((Terraforming + WorkedTerraforming) + 8 * Borehole + 4 * Condenser - Forests * (TreeFacilities / 2) / 8) + Minerals - (16 + FungalBlooms)) / (1 + CentauriPreserve + TempleofPlanet + Nanoreplicator) + 5 * Atrocity) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ((1 iff(AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion)) + 1))/300

Okay, the actual formula is:

EcoDamage: [ ({[({[(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1] + [Minerals - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2] / [1 + (CentauriPreserve+TempleofPlanet+Nanoreplicator)_inbasse + (PholtusMutagen+SingularityInductor)_factionowned] + 5*Atrocity}) * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ({1 iff[AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion] else 0}+1)]/300

Points of interest in this forumula:

It can be broken down as follows:

[(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1]

+

[Minerals - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2] /[1 + (CentauriPreserve+TempleofPlanet+Nanoreplicator)_inbasse + (PholtusMutagen+SingularityInductor)_factionowned]

+ 5*Atrocities

All of the above * Difficulty * Technologies * (3 - Planet) * Life * ({1 iff[AlphaPrimeIsAtPerihelion] else 0}+1)]/300

Furthermore

(16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part2 = (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities) - (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1 .

and (16+FungalBlooms+SpecialFacilities)_part1 = [(Terraforming + 2*WorkedTerraforming + UnworkedTerraforming) + 8*Borehole + 6*Echelons + 4*Condenser - Forests] * [(2-TreeFacilities)/2]} /8) provided that the value is >=0.
Other wise, part1 = 0.

That was the mathematical representation of the results, with the aforementioned caveat that I can't remember exactly where to place the 5*Atrocities factor. Sorry that I ain't perfect.

Edit: Prima forgot Echelons too aparently. I added them in.

Edit2: Did I forget to mention that special facilities are TreeFarm, Hybrid Forest, Centauri Preserve and Temple of Planet, and that the value is equall to the total number built by your faction since the first pop? I did, didn't I?

[Blake]

Fitz, most testing I did was in SMAC not SMAX (altough some of my earlier testing was done in SMAX). The formula holds equally true for both, atleast as far as I can tell.

My testing did suggest that for ED purposes "major atrocities" are counted EXACTLY the same as adding 5 minerals to every base (I'm not saying it happens that way in the actual calculation, rather there is no difference between increasing mineral output by 5 and launching a PB).

So it would indeed seem that Atrocity ED is reduced by CP's. (and it's not terribly hard to test either, launch a dozen PB's, build a CP in a base and see if the ED is halved, or reduced by some other fraction).

[Ned]

Blake and Fitz, I did test it, and the MA ED is divided by (1+GoodFACs).

My apologies, vogon_jeltz, for misquoting your nickname. But I would hope that you would now agree that we did in fact discover new information concerning ED that has not been previously published that is probably significantly more important than the information that is published because it can significantly alter strategy.

Ned

[Deimos]

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz was not a pleasant sight, even for other Vogons. His highly domed nose rose high above a small piggy forehead. His dark green rubbery skin was thick enough for him to play the game of Vogon Civil Service politics, and play it well, and waterproof enough for him to survive indefinitely at sea depths of up to a thousand feet with no ill effects. Not that he ever went swimming of course. His busy schedule would not allow it. He was the way he was because billions of years ago when the Vogons had first crawled out of the sluggish primeval seas of Vogsphere, and had lain panting and heaving on the planet's virgin shores... when the first rays of the bright young Vogsol sun had shone across them that morning, it was as if the forces of evolution ad simply given up on them there and then, had turned aside in disgust and written them off as an ugly and unfortunate mistake. They never evolved again; they should never have survived. The fact that they did is some kind of tribute to the thick- willed slug-brained stubbornness of these creatures. Evolution? they said to themselves, Who needs it?, and what nature refused to do for them they simply did without until such time as they were able to rectify the grosser anatomical inconveniences with surgery. Meanwhile, the natural forces on the planet Vogsphere had been working overtime to make up for their earlier blunder. They brought forth scintillating jewelled scuttling crabs, which the Vogons ate, smashing their shells with iron mallets; tall aspiring trees with breathtaking slenderness and colour which the Vogons cut down and burned the crab meat with; elegant gazelle- like creatures with silken coats and dewy eyes which the Vogons would catch and sit on. They were no use as transport because their backs would snap instantly, but the Vogons sat on them anyway. Thus the planet Vogsphere whiled away the unhappy millennia until the Vogons suddenly discovered the principles of interstellar travel. Within a few short Vog years every last Vogon had migrated to the Megabrantis cluster, the political hub of the Galaxy and now formed the immensely powerful backbone of the Galactic Civil Service. They have attempted to acquire learning, they have attempted to acquire style and social grace, but in most respects the modern Vogon is little different from his primitive forebears. Every year they import twenty-seven thousand scintillating jewelled scuttling crabs from their native planet and while away a happy drunken night smashing them to bits with iron mallets.

--The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
-- Dogulas Adams
-- May he rest in peace. We will miss you.

So, do I win?