Ascent to Transcedence and Stockpile Energy

[SorvinoBackhand]

When someone builds the Voice of Planet, and the race to Ascent begins, can I change the production of all my cities to Stockpile Energy without changing each build command individually? There must be a way to shift the production of all one's cities to the same item with going into each indivdidual city screen. Who wants to scroll thru 50 cities changing each production command?
Thanx

[Purple]

I don't know of a global method of setting the build queue, but each queue will revert to Stockpile Energy automatically if the last item built is a base facility or SP.

[Skanderbeg]

If You are not able to build the Ascendent to Transcendent in one turn (
and You normally should be able with Your hordes of crawlers),
there is a more efficient way to rush to the AtT than stockpile energy:
Build crawler gravships, move them to the AtT-building base and cash them in! Using stockpile energy, You will losse half the minerals.

[Misotu]

I've never come across a way of setting the build queue globally.

On building the Ascent (or any SP though), building many crawlers is fine if you are mineral-rich. If you are energy rich, you should build one or two cheap crawlers and upgrade them with expensive armour and special abilities before cashing them in for their full mineral value.

In fact, a single supply jet will build the Ascent in one turn. I think the ideal configuration is antimatter armour, 2 of the most expensive special abilities and fusion reactor. Build the cheapest supply jet you can, and then upgrade it. With the Nanofactory this will cost you around 650 energy. Make sure you are running something like Dem/FM/Know/Cybernetic (no industry bonuses) when you cash it in - it's worth something like 1210 minerals on those settings - then switch to Dem/Planned/Wealth/Eudaimonia for the lowest-priced Ascent available (1200 minerals, I think).

[Ned]

Has anyone noticed that a fusion speeder crawler costs the same as a fission infrantry crawler?

I never did. That is, until my last game when I build one by accident and noticed the cost. I guess this shows too much historical reliance on "autodesign."

Ned

[Misotu]

Yup Turn auto-design off - all you get is buckets of units you're never going to build anyway. Then design your own. You'll make mistakes (I still do ) but you learn more that way.

[MariOne]

Mis, as Ned pointed out in another thread, one thing is the theory about the best upgrade cost-effectiveness, and another thing is adapting the theory to the assets you have available in the specific situation.
That is, problably when you'r up to build the Ascent, youle have lots of crawlers which you're able to make converge in one base, and as you wouldn't need'em anymore after that, you might find that settling for a non optimal cost-per-mineral in your upgrade allows you to shell less overall ec for that operation.

Anyway, SE switches considerations apart (if you plan for 3 switches in a turn you should consider counting the non-negligible upheaval cost in the whole operation), here's what the theory says for the best upgrade cost-effectiveness unit (that's just the theory, so I'm not considering here the crawlers you have already avaiable).

Build a 0-1-8*3 (Quantum Gravship Supply).
Upgrade it to a 0-12-8*1, with the 2 most expensive abilities allowed in that combination (given the high armor, you won't have two "cost 2" SA in the menu, can't recall offhand which I used, but I guess you can figure out on your own).
The basic QGS costs 5 rows, thus there's a little higher crawler production investment, somehting I wouldn't do in evryturn conditions (did I say that I'm talking theory?).
The 0-12-8*1 2SA costs... 200 rows!!!!
Coinicidence, that's exactly the row cost of the Ascent (as I said, I don't consider here SE switches).
The upgrade cost is 2000ec for the final unit cost + 110ec for the 11 level armor increase (12-1), that is 2110 ec.
You pay that sum to obtain 195 added mineral rows (200 - the 5 of the original QGS).
This gives you 10.82ec per added mineral row, and that's the best cost per added row I could devise for any imaginable upgrade in the whole game.

[Misotu]

MariOne ... this is most interesting. But in a number of PBEMs, I have built the Ascent in *every* base on the final turn, to avoid last-minute military strikes. I could care less how many supply crawlers I have hanging around - unless I can afford to upgrade them in a worthwhile manner, they are just chaff.

I can see absolutely no reason to build a gravship supply. In a well-managed Ascendence, you would not have the tech to build such things.

Under my system, each Ascent costs 650 energy, which beats your 2000 by a huge margin. I think the SE changes cost something like 195 worst case ... a paltry sum under the circumstances. If you are not considering SE switches, then you are making a mistake unless you are building a single Ascent which, in my opinion, would be a tragic error in MP

Sorry ... but I'm baffled. I could care less for your rows. I have built 16 Ascents in a single turn ... and *that* takes some doing I am confident that I have found the cheapest way to achieve this. Gravships have absolutely *no* part to play in it

[MariOne]

Mis,
seeing talk about big projects and upgrades, I just caught the opportunity to report the best pure theory about that, not considering real field conditions and other variables... (and you can't say I wasn't clear in my disclaimers, of course I know that it's a mistake to not consider all the available legal mechanisms in real play, including one-way SE switches)

I know that on the path to transcendence you don't need to get to Quantum and Gravships, and I too personally strive to keep on the striclty required path, hey, but who knows... (I trusted that elite players would have spotted that).

More Important, I have to amend here about the Chassis (and you fell in my mistake too):
there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jet and Gravship Chassis in terms of production and upgrade costs!
So, what I said applied to a QJS too, in the same way (I have an old chart reporting just 0-1-8*3, and posting Gravship came to my mind, don't know why).
Thus, I agree: my initial post stood valid even if "Gravships have absolutely *no* part to play in it "!!!
About Quantum, I think that you might end to obtain it somehow on your path to Transcendence, after all it's just two more techs astray, or eventually a theft...

-----

Some real Figures now tho.

First, my example costs 2110 *without* the NanoFactory.
With it (and I report you that I transcended in games where I let an ally build it...), the "purely mental exercise" QGS upgrade would cost 1055.

At Transcend (would we talk about any less?), one SE switch costs 40ec, two in the same turn cost 135ec, three in the same turn cost 320ec (and four, not needed here, 625).
More could be said, that you were already running FM (or Green)/Know/Cyber. That is quite possible in the end game, so you wouldn't need to count the 40(or 135)ec to switch to a 0 industry the turn before in case you were not there. Some players might have to apply that too tho.

The cheapest jets supply is the quantum one costing 5 rows, but as Quantum is not on the Transcendence path, we'll use Fusion costing 6 rows to build.
The Fission one costs 11 rows thus it's out of the question to build that one out of your factories when you have the Fusion.

As you can't switch SE, cash, and switch SE again (SE quickies, is there anyone accepting them, since the game got out?), you must be already at 0 Industry on the turn when you cash it in, so that you're allowed to switch to +4 Industry, 200 rows of Ascent = 1200 minerals.
This means that you'r producing at 0 industry if you produce just on time, not optimal for cheapest production. Of course at that point in game your production capacity would be so high that a dozen minerals more in the starting unit's production cost are indeed negligible (or did you say that you're not mineral-rich?), I give you that.

As the Jet chassis makes many abilities unavailable, as so does the Supply equipment, a Jet Supply will only have 4 abilities to pick from:
Clean - Cost 2
Secure - Cost 1
Radar - Cost 0
Trance - Cost depending on armor: 2 up to 4, 1 up to 8, 0 for 10 & 12

Beware, the less experienced might have overlooked that, while usually a Fusion unit costs less than a Fission one, in particular cases this is not true.
A Jet chassis (movement increased with Reactor) with heavy armor is one of such cases).
So I'll take by default that we keep the Fusion Reactor in this upgrade, unless otherwise stated.

Well, JetSupply (JS) with armor 10 and the TWO most expensive SA (Special Abilities) which are then Clean Secure, is worth 138 rows!! At Industry Zero it will be cashed in for 1380 minerals, which is a waste if you then switch to Industry 4 where you only need 1200 for the Ascent.
As with armor 10 Trance is *declared* to be a zero cost SA, one might presume that your example was made with Clean only.
Here there's another sneaky glitch in the unit cost formula:
JS10 Clean Secure: 138 rows
JS10 Clean Radar (SA cost0) or JS10 Clean nothing: 108 rows
JS10 Clean Trance: 121 rows! despite Trance too is declared at 0 cost!

So, you have to produce a 60min JS0, upgrade it to a CleanTrance JS10 worht 121 rows; this costs 1210 (10 per target row) plus 90 (9 armor levels added) that is 1300, 650 with NF as you correctly said.
Add 320 for the SE switch and you get 970 ec against my 1055.
In my case, not having to care for SE switches, I could have already been at Industry 4 and my starting unit would only have required 30 minerals to build, to slightly balance the higher cost of my approach.

Your upgrade costed 0.5 ec more than mine per gained mineral row, talking upgrade pure theory.
But in practice, it's yours the one useful, I know this.
With a triple SE switch you can indeed spare 800 minerals with 320 ec, and I have no problem in recognizing that in practical gaming this is much more effective! 0.4ec per mineral!
It is also true that in practical gaming, you said that you would produce few cheap crawlers and upgrade them instead of producing many.
I agree, but I don't agree that if you *already* have many available they're just chaff.
As here we both are (now) talking about the most *practically* convenient way to builds Ascent, and are talking about less than 100ec difference (on a single Ascent I know, I'll address that below).
So I figure that if you have a "couple" of Fusion Speeder Crawlers around (maybe since long time), you're NOT using the cheapest way to achieve your goal if you don't consider throwing them in too somehow (as you won't need them "after"...)

And you overlooked one possibilty:
to use Power SE!!!
That would allow you to start NOT from Industry 10, BUT from Industry 12.
Or to make only two switches, keeping Demo/Eud, and passing from Green/Power (Industry 0) to Plan/Wealth, spending 195ec instead of 320.
You'd say that you don't use Power usually. Well, that's your problem, but then you can't boast that you're using the cheapest way .

With Power, you'd just need to obtain a unit worth 100 rows, cashed in for 1200 minerals at Industry -2.

What would it change? Unfortunatley, there's no single-unit sharp-100 rows combination:
SecureTrance JPS10 is worth 104 rows, upg.1130/565ec and you waste 4 rows (cheaper than yours anyway)
But:
CleanTrance JS8 worth 94 rows, you provide the missing 6 rows with two basic crawlers (considering you've plenty), upgrade cost 1010 (505 NF). That's 145 (!) ec cheaper than your approch, although you have to provide 2 extra basic crawlers.
If you happen to have Quantum around, the CleanTrance QJS8 is worth 98 rows. Upgrade cost 1050/525 but you have only 12 minerals to make up for then.

Or:
take 4 Fusion Speeder Crawlers (you should have them around even if you're energy and not mineral rich; anyway, they cost 3 rows each).
Upgrade them to CleanDropFission, 2 of them armor2, the other 2 armor3.
100 rows at the cost of 1060/530ec.

Or:
JS4 FissionCleanTrance 41rows upg.440ec +
JS6 CleanTrance 60rows upg.650ec
101 rows for 1090/545ec, 2 units for 6+6=12 rows to build initially (10 if you have Quantum)

Or:
build 3 Fusion Hover Supply 4 rows each =12
upgrade to FissionCleanDrop, armors 3, 3 & 4
100 rows cost 1070/535ec

same with 3 0-1-2*2 but upgrade to 1 extra armor level than above (4+4+5)
100 rows, cost lifts to 1100/550ec, but the initial crawlers cost 3 rows each not 4 (9 rows overall, less than 2 jets, and cheaper to hurry).

With Quantum, consider
3 0-4-2*3 (yes you build them with silksteel)
upgrade to usual FissionCleanDrop, armor 4+4+5
100rows cost 1010/505ec (!) but you have to produce units for 5+5+5=15 rows initially .
Identical figures starting with 3 0-3-3*3 upgraded to armor 3+3+4

If you use multiple units solution, this means that either you have them around, or if you want to produce, upgrade, cash'em in and complete the Ascent(s) in the same turn, you can't have one every base!


So, your solution is the cheapest straightforward single-unit, NO-Power, sharp-minerals (you waste one row actually) one.


After all this nitpicking, I have tho to say

HAT OFF!

16 Ascents in a sinlge turn!!!! THAT is an achievement. And had you thought to use Power and a varied crawlers approach, you would have even spared over 2000ec!
OK, that way the impact of the SE Switches fixed cost becomes negligible, having to divide it by the number of ascents you build.

I am rather puzzled about tho the tactical reason forcing you to do that.
I understand that building a single Ascent is a risk in a PBEM.
In one where I transcended, the Spartan enemy managed to conquer a border base only 10 tiles away from my single Ascent one. I KNEW tho that he couldn't do more than that, also because I relied on the huge defensive contribution of my iron-ally the Hive. True, I had no safety against a Hive backstab, but that was a (very slim) risk I took.
And I had just the money to build that one on that turn, having strived to get to it asap.

I mean.
You surely would have ALL your territory covered from drops by Aerocomplexes and interceptors.
I know that Treaty makes that umbrella uneffective, but then it's up to you to manage your diplomatic status in the crucial last turns.
As you're about to transcend, your opponents must also be very advanced and powerful to make you fear like that.
For instance, either they have the Space Elevator, or they have Graviton Theory. Otherwise, without the possibility of Insertions, you should be able to guard your borders enough!!!
OK, you might think careful to build 3 or 4 ascents, but 16!!!! I can only see in it an impressive display of power and skill, barely a game conduct dictated by real necessity!

Anyway.
16 Ascents (I presume that this is the same example where you built an ascent in every base) at 650ec each, mean that you must have an income of over 10'000ec in a turn, or that you have accumulated that sum in the last ones.
My only doubt would be:
if your enemies are so close to you to make you fear and take such exceptional countermeasures,
could it be possible that you might had then allocated MORE towards research in the previous turns, renouncing to some money but getting earlier to the end?
I expound: wouldn't you had the occasion to build 2-3 Ascents 2 turns earlier, rather than 16 two turns later? Wouldn't have also those (eventual) two turns difference helped to keep the danger from your so advanced and close enemies lower?
BTW, did you Transcend alone, or did you share the victory with some Pactmate?

---
In conclusion:
you're one of my favourite posters here, and also from hints such as the issue here I've no problems in recognizing that you must also be one of the best players, much better than I can hope to be.
The techniques you use are surely effective and suited to the way you play.
But no one's perfect!!!


With great admiration anyway
yours MoSe



[This message has been edited by MariOne (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Misotu]

Hiya MoSe

No need to spare my feelings - we post here often enough for us to have a conversation without worrying about upsetting each other I hope

Your post was very interesting - it's yet another example of how different people play the game very differently, with good results both ways.

Nowadays in MP (if I actually manage to get to Threshhold before the nerve gassing starts!) I always build more than one Ascent if I possibly can, which does affect the way I look at things.

As you observed, the SE switch cost per Ascent is therefore pretty low.

"As you can't switch SE, cash, and switch SE again [...] you must be already at 0 Industry on the turn when you cash it in"

Yes, that's right.

"This means that you'r producing at 0 industry if you produce just on time, not optimal for cheapest production. Of course at that point in game your production capacity would be so high that a dozen minerals more in the starting unit's production cost are indeed negligible (or did you say that you're not mineral-rich?), I give you that."

I tend not to be mineral-rich, but I always have a few bases that are reasonable. So sometimes I use those to build the units and then send them out to other bases. I have to start early, and build them over a period in the final run-up. Other times, I just kick them all off in many bases about 5 turns from the end, and rush a little where necessary. There's not much to build in the last few turns when you're just rolling through those final techs, after all. Also, I'm usually disbanding formers to help it along, since I don't need extra terraforming by that time, either. And there is another advantage, in that I'm not spending much energy so I'm accumulating a little fund for the upgrades that will be required.

But what's more important to me is that I am running the optimal SE settings to hit Transcendence at the earliest point in the game. The settings are very often Dem/ FM or Green /Know/Cyber - ie 0 industry. It's not a problem that the unit takes longer to build, because it's more important to me to grab the labs and the economy,

"As the Jet chassis makes many abilities unavailable, as so does the Supply equipment, a Jet Supply will only have 4 abilities to pick from:
Clean - Cost 2
Secure - Cost 1
Radar - Cost 0
Trance - Cost depending on armor: 2 up to 4, 1 up to 8, 0 for 10 & 12"

In SMAX, you get Diss Wave as well, at a cost of 2, so you have a lot of flexibility there. But still, it's true that it can sometimes be awkward to get something that's close to the price you want.

"In my case, not having to care for SE switches, I could have already been at Industry 4 and my starting unit would only have required 30 minerals to build, to slightly balance the higher cost of my approach."

I suppose it would depend what faction you were and how you were acquiring your research. I think your approach would be very good if, say, you were a momentum faction partnered with UoP and they were passing you the tech for you to build the Ascent. Doing your own research though, if you are already at industry 4 as a result of SE (ie not the Drones or whatever), my concern would be that you are running pretty inefficient non-research-oriented SE settings, which will have a significant impact on your research and energy income even if you are Gaia or CyC. I'm often running 80-100% labs by then, tweaked on a turn by turn basis, so I find I need very decent efficiency to avoid penalties.

"So I figure that if you have a "couple" of Fusion Speeder Crawlers around (maybe since long time), you're NOT using the cheapest way to achieve your goal if you don't consider throwing them in too somehow (as you won't need them "after"...)"

I consider it often - in the game I've just finished, DT7, I was upgrading every crawler I could lay my hands on! - but I generally find it's either not necessary or it doesn't make sense. Depends on the circumstances - my crawlers tend to travel quite a way in some games. Why move a crawler out of your energy park, when you can build another before it can reach the target base? It's often more effective to keep the energy coming in, which you can then use to upgrade the new supply you've built. On the other hand, sometimes at the end of the game it's literally a supply unit or stockpile energy - there's nothing else left to build that makes sense. So I don't worry about my little jets. I think they do me good service

"And you overlooked one possibilty: to use Power SE!!!"

Power. Well, more discarded than overlooked, given that my other choices are Knowledge and Wealth! Power is very low on my list of priorities, as a builder. The Cloning Vats, on the other hand, are very high on that list, and the Vats cancel the negative effects of Power I believe (haven't checked it since I don't use Power ... ). I don't always get the Vats, but I do build them more often than not.

"You surely would have ALL your territory covered from drops by Aerocomplexes and interceptors."

No interceptors, ever, in vulnerable bases. Just my personal taste, I know others differ. But aero everywhere, yes.

"I know that Treaty makes that umbrella uneffective, but then it's up to you to manage your diplomatic status in the crucial last turns."

I need you to explain this a bit more because I'm not sure what you mean? As far as I know, a treaty doesn't enable me to drop and attack if there's aero/interceptor in the way. A pact does enable me to do the drop ... but I have to cancel the pact to declare vendetta. And when I cancel the pact, my units are rehomed ... ?

"As you're about to transcend, your opponents must also be very advanced and powerful to make you fear like that."

Sometimes, but not necessarily. I'm just very paranoid I'm afraid Even when I have 16 ODPs to their 9, if I see 4 busters sitting in enemy bases within strike range I just work on the basis that I'm going to lose 9 ODPs and 4 cities. Highly improbable, but I work on worst case. And I often don't see what's coming in terms of a conventional attack, unless I'm paying very careful attention. As you know, MP opponents can be very devious and it's hard to anticipate all the clever schemes they might come up with! Thing is, if you build the Ascent everywhere or at least in half a dozen bases, people are so daunted that they often don't even try. But if you only build one, you're asking for trouble I generally have enough energy to build many, so that's what I do. No point having energy in the bank when the game is over, might as well build something with it.

"16 Ascents (I presume that this is the same example where you built an ascent in every base) at 650ec each, mean that you must have an income of over 10'000ec in a turn, or that you have accumulated that sum in the last ones."

16 Ascents was the most I ever built. But there have been quite a few MP games now where I've built the Ascent in every base, without having to hold up the year when the game finishes. I think it would be unreasonable to spin the game out just to build loads of Ascents for the hell of it so I just build as many as I can as soon as I have the tech, provided I can build more than one.

To get the income, you run 100% economy on the turn when you build the Voice. That will pull in thousands of energy, if you've focused your game that way. Also, you can sell facilities on that turn and the one after. I'll sell research hospitals plus the nanohospital(s) in my main research base(s). Psych isn't a problem, because I have transcendi. On the following turn, I can sell all my hab domes where I have them, fusion labs where I don't. This will produce quite a lot of money! Plus it is unlikely to have been productive to run 100% labs constantly for the few turns prior, so there will be some accumulation.

"I expound: wouldn't you had the occasion to build 2-3 Ascents 2 turns earlier, rather than 16 two turns later?"

You're right, I won't wait a couple of turns if I can build 3 now and 16 in 2 turns time. On the other hand, I would wait a turn if I could only build one immediately, but several more by waiting a year to build the Voice.

"BTW, did you Transcend alone, or did you share the victory with some Pactmate?"

Alone. Always alone (sob)

cheers, MoSE. I enjoyed reading your post. As always, it contained a very informative and complete analysis. I knew the cost of trance varied, for example, but I didn't realise exactly what the formula was until I read your post.

- Mis (I'm sure we'll play each other in a PBEM some day. I look forward to it. But hailing from Acol as you do, where they are very tough nuts, I think the outcome will never be in doubt ... )